Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivm
I can't wait for the patch!
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What determines the value of the treasure you get from a creep camp or node? It seems to be influenced by too many things to count, and my testing has been inconclusive.
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You are absolutely right. It is influenced by many things.
NOTE: The following facts and figures are shamelessly lifted from Prima's Official Master of Magic Strategy Guide.
Each Node, Lair and Tower of Wizardry is generated at the start of each game. 25 normal lairs and 32 weak lairs are randomly distributed between Arcanus and Myrror. In addition, Arcanus gets 16 nodes, Myrror gets 14 nodes and 6 Towers of Wizardry are generated. Please note, no lair/node/tower will ever be stocked with more than 2 types of creatures so while you might see (for example) Wyrms and Sprites or Wyrms and Spiders in a lair/node/tower you will never see Wyrms, Sprites AND Spiders in the same place.
All of the above are stocked with monsters at games start and the monsters do not change during the game as opposed to treasure which is dynamically generated at the time the of the guardians of the lair/node/tower's defeat. That makes it possible to save the game beforehand and “farm” for certain types of treasures by using a save game/fight/reload game cycle until you get something acceptable (the “budget” of the lair/node/tower determining the relative worth/value/rarity of any spells and items present. There is no way to get a certain rarity of spell if that spell doesn't fit into the “budget” but if you are looking to get say, the Green Spell Change Terrain and the lair you just conquered gave up any uncommon spell, then there is an excellent chance you can make the Change Terrain Spell show up as loot by using a save/fight/reload cycle, your spellbook choices and conscience permitting).
The “budget” referred to above is how much mana the computer will spend on stocking the lair/node/tower with monsters/treasure. It is random within certain ranges.
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The following is laid out in difficulty level:Intro/Easy/Normal/Hard/Impossible.
Towers of Wizardry (Both Planes)
Creatures:175-300/350-600/575-900/700-1200/875-1500
Treasure:350-1500/350-1500/350-1500/350-1500/437-1875
Normal Lairs (Arcanus)
Creatures:25-325/50-750/75-1075/100-1500/125-1825
Treasure:50-1625/50-1791/50-1875/50-1875/62-2281
Normal Lairs (Myrror)
Creatures:50-625/100-1250/150-1875/200-2500/250-3125
Treasure:150-4375/150-4375/150-4375/150-4375/187-5468
Weak Lairs (Arcanus)
Creatures:2-25/5-50/7-75/10-100/12-125
Treasures:50-125/50-125/50-125/50-125/50-156
Weak Lairs (Myrror)
Creatures:2-50/5-100/7-150/10-200/12-250
Treasures:50-350/50-350/50-350/50-350/50-437
Nodes (Weak Magic Setting)
Arcanus
Creatures:15-187/31-375/46-562/62-750/78-937
Treasures:50-935/50-936/50-937/50-937/50-1171
Myrror
Creatures:62-750/125-1500/187-2250/250-300/312-3750
Treasure:187-5250/187-5250/187-5250/187-5250/234-6562
Nodes-Normal Magic Setting:2x Weak Magic numbers for both Planes.
Nodes-Strong Magic Setting:3x Weak Magic numbers for both Planes.
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Within the various ranges, the computer will pick a random number and that will be the “mana budget” for that particular build.
Example: The computer is stocking a Tower of Wizardry at the Hard Difficulty level (mana range 700-1200) and it randomly picks 1038. That is the maximum amount of mana the computer will use to stock the tower with. Further, it will also generate a random number between 1 and 4 (rolls a d4) and divide the budget by that number. In this case the computer rolls a 3. 1038/3=346 so the computer will NOT spend more than 346 mana on any single summoned creature. Before actually buying the creatures, the color is determined by the following:
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Tower Of Wizardry:
Black(2 in 6 chance)-White/Red/Green/Blue(1 in 6 chance each).
Ancient Temple/Ancient Ruins/Fallen Temple:
White(1 in 4 chance)-Black(3 in 4 chance)-Red/Green/Blue(no chance).
Mysterious Cave/Dungeon/Abandoned Keep/Monster Lair:
Black/Red/Green(1 in 3 chance each)-White/Blue(no chance).
Chaos Node:Red only.
Nature Node:Green only.
Sorcery Node:Blue only.
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In this case, the computer rolls Red(Chaos). To continue with the above example: The most expensive Red summoned creature at or below 346 mana is a Doom Bat (300 mana casting cost). The computer will buy as many of it's top end creatures as it can within its budget up to a maximum of 8 creatures. In this case it can buy 3. 3x300=900, 1038-900=138. Not enough mana left over to buy a 4th Doom Bat. Also, if more than one top end monster is purchased there is a 50% chance the computer will “throw” one back. In this case that is what happens, the computer gives one Doom Bat back and recoups the mana. So we stand at 2 Doom Bats, 600 mana spent, 438 mana remaining.
Now the computer determines the maximum price for any secondary or minor monsters it will buy buy using a random number between 1 and X (X being 10 minus the number of monsters already purchased) and dividing the remaining mana by that number. In this case the computer rolls a d8 (10-[2 Doom Bats already purchased]=8) and gets a 5. 438/5=87.6. The most expensive Red creature that can be summoned for 87.6 mana or less is the Hell Hound(40 mana casting cost). With the remaining 438 mana the computer can buy 10 Hell Hounds but since we already have 2 Doom Bats and the stacking limit is 9 units, only 7 Hell Hounds can be used and the unspent mana is simply not used.
So in the example above, this particular Tower of Wizardry is guarded by a full stack of 9 Chaos creatures:2-Doom Bats/7-Hell Hounds for a total strength of 880. 2x300(Doom Bats) + 7x40(Hell Hounds) OR 600+280=880 mana spent. This becomes a modifier for use when treasure is generated.
So, we kicked the stuffing out of this Tower, what happens next? Looking at the Treasure Values for a Tower at the hard level we get a range of 350-1500. This is where the strength modifier from the creature shopping comes in. The harder the creatures and the more of the total mana budget spent, the more the computer is going to modify towards the top end of the scale as far as the treasure roll goes. It won't save you from a bad luck random number on treasure but the computer will adjust it up (or down) a ways for a completely out of whack roll to bring it closer be being comparable with the monsters that you defeated.
In this case, the computer gets a value of 1050 for the Raw Treasure roll.
A few caveats before I get into the nuts and bolts here.
The Myrran Ability will never be awarded as loot. Obvious maybe but it is a retort and they do get awarded as loot.
Infernal Power will never be awarded to players with White Spells books and vice versa with Divine Power. Neither can you be awarded a White Spell Book if you already have a Black one. The reverse is true here as well.
Artifacts (from the ITEMDAT.LBX file) that cost more than 3000 mana to make will NEVER be awarded as loot for an Artifact pick. The only was to get an unlimited power Artifact as loot is to be awarded a Special Ability(skill retort) or a Spell Book and be maxed out on Wizards Abilities or Spell Books for whatever reason. (Each player is limited to 6 abilities and 13 spell books).
Prisoners will not be awarded if you have a full stack and prisoners are limited to the ones that can be summoned by the “Summon Hero” Spell.
When conquering a Tower of Wizardry, the first item rolled is automatically a spell.
No more than 1 spell will ever be awarded as loot.
Anytime a Special is rolled, all other loot is discarded(the Strategy Guide is unclear here, whether it discards all loot for that instance or simply stops rolling on the loot table once you get a special is something I can't figure out. I think I can recall games where I got a special and something else in addition to it but am not positive about that-Oso)
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Format
Chance:Treasure(Qualifying Amount/Spend Amount/Limit)
33.3%:Artifact(300/400-3000/3)
20.0%:Spell
-----:Common(50/50/1)
-----:Uncommon(200/200/1)
-----:Rare(450/450/1)
-----:Very Rare(800/800/1)
13.3%:10-200 Gold(50/200/NA)
13.3%:10-200 Mana(50/200/NA)
13.3%:1 Special(1000/3000/1)
-----:2 Special(2000/3000/2)
06.7%:Prisoner(400/1000/1)
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Ok, we have 1050 raw points for treasure in this example and since it was a Tower of Wizardry, the first item is always a spell. A roll of 1 to 4 (1=Common,4=Very Rare) gets us a 2. An Uncommon Spell. So the Qualifying amount is 200, we have 1050 so no problem. We get the spell. That brings us down to a point value of 950 (normally an uncommon spell would cost 200 as a spend amount but as we just conquered a Tower there is a 100 point spend amount discount for the first spell roll).
Ok we have 950 points left which is more than 50 points (the computer will stop rolling for loot once less than 50 points of the original raw treasure points remain) so the loot rolls continue. And this roll is also a spell and what's more, it is also an uncommon spell so 200 points are deducted leaving us with 750. But since we can't have more than 1 spell in a pile of loot, the original Uncommon Spell is upgraded to a Very Rare Spell (2+2=4=Very Rare Spell). At this point, any further spell rolls will be ignored. (Again, the Strategy Guide is unclear here. It does not say if another spell roll will be re-rolled or if that becomes a lost roll. It may very well deduct the price of the spell it rolled but you have nothing to show for it. For proof I offer my experience that I have conquered some very tough nodes/lairs late in a game and gotten nothing for it. So if you get something as loot that your points qualify you for but that you cannot use, it may very well just poof away-Oso)
750 points left. More than 50 so we continue. The next roll is a special but the qualifying amount of points is 1000 and we only have 750 so it is re-rolled (<-The Strategy guide seems very clear here. Not enough points to qualify so no points deducted and rolling continues). The next roll Mana Crystals are rolled. The Qualifying Amount of 50 for Mana Crystals is well below 750 so we get some. 90 Crystals are rolled and 200 spend points are taken away from our total leaving 550 usable points.
The next roll gives use a prisoner. Note that to qualify for a prisoner, you need only have 400 usable points but that it costs 1000 to get one. We only have 550 points left but we get the prisoner because we qualify for him/her but it takes our points total to below 50 (well below 50 and into negative numbers actually) so we are done.
To recap:A tower of Wizardry was staffed with 2 Doom Bats and 7 Hell Hounds. For defeating it we received 1 Very Rare Spell, 90 Mana Crystals and a Prisoner.
As stated at the beginning, the monsters will remain the same throughout the game but the treasure isn't generated until the monsters are defeated. So if you saved the game, defeated the monsters and then reloaded that same game and fought again, the treasures might be similar (or not) but they probably won't be exactly the same on the second try.
Some of my own thoughts.
I have noticed there are some things in the Official Strategy Guide that don't quite follow my game experience. One of them is how the treasure is supposed to be generated anew whenever a lair/node/tower is conquered. By the way the book says it, with the exception of Towers of Wizardry which guarantees you a spell, you shouldn't be able to conquer a node or lair that gives you a spell and then reload and expect to get a spell again. Yet it happens all the time. I suspect the “random” part of the treasure generation isn't truly random. In the above example, I suspect that at the time the monsters are purchased for the Tower of Wizardry at least part of the loot is as well. In that it says that TOW#1 will have a very rare spell, some mana and a prisoner when conquered. The dynamic allocation at defeat is limited to what spell it is, the amount of mana and which particular prisoner is granted based on the players setting at start time and what heroes and spells the player already has in his/her possession.
I also suspect that conquering a Tower of Wizardry is the ONLY way to get a spell beyond your spell book ability. Being that you are guaranteed a spell, you may be able to get a rare or very rare spell you shouldn't simply because you may already be in possession of all the spells your spell books will let you have through other lairs/nodes/towers or player trades.
Also, I suspect that if you get a result that says you get a rare or very rare spell as loot and you don't qualify for it you may very well get a lower level spell that you do qualify for providing you don't know them all already. Aside from the Towers of Wizardry, I'm thinking that if you get a spell you don't qualify for by having enough spell books and have no unlearned spells in lower categories, you lose that part of the loot completely. Which may explain why you sometimes come across lairs that you would think should give you loot but you find nothing.