«

[rlbell]

Let's start with a callous comment:

The only thing that we can really learn from the death of Princess Diana is that being famous does not excuse you from buckling up.

[Lulu_Jane]

Here's another one -

I don't care if you are Elvis, dying on the toilet is a really embarrassing way to die - however, it will not affect your record sales post-mortem.

[Sebatianos]

OK, so I'm guessing this is the "serious" topic opened for this.

Let's see where to start, to develop a possible discusion...

Personally I take death as a part of life, the part of life that everybody (even Disney although some won't admit it) reach in the end. There is therefore nothing unusual about it.

Deaths may be tragic, a relief or a natural way of time passing humanity.

A tragic death would be, if a family with young children dies in a car, because a drunken fart crashed into them and killed them all.

A relief would be if a person has been suffering with no chance of improvement and couldn't function in life anymore (example a person turning into a vegetable who couldn't move - sorry, if you ask me, I'd prefer to die, then to lay on bed and be able to do nothing but blink and feel pain with every breath I take).

A natural way, when a person passed from living to dead due to a natural cause of events. I count deaths of different illnesses in the same category. If your lifestyle included risky sexual relationship and you got AIDS and died in your thirties, I still consider it a natural death (it was your lifestyle). I'd call it a tragedy if you'd gotten AIDS during a routine check-up where a careless nurse didn't change the needle to take your blood sample and you got infected.

The way of your death does not (or at least doesn't ot me) effect my way of feeling about it.

Grief is a comletely different thing.

I'd grief if I'd feel a personal loss over the death of a person, and would not grief if I didn't feel it.

With that being said, I completely understand why people feel grief with celebrity deaths and not because some unknown people died. It's a big difference.

If I hear about an airplane crash and dozens of people die, I might get upset, I would feel sorry for the families and I would - if I could - try to prevent it from heppening again. But I feel no grief. Those people were not less importaint, but I knew nothing about them, I felt nothing towards them (except the interhuman respect I feel for all people, and even most of the animals and plants, simply because all are living creatures).

On the other hand I would feel grief (although I might not be shocked) when a celebrity dies). Good example was the recent death of Luciano Pavarotti. I don't care how he died. He was of an age that death wasn't a shock and he (at least I hope he didn't, because I wish it for no-one) didn't really feel much pain. So his death wasn't tragic, but I did feel a personal loss. I admired the person and his art. I enjoyed his singing and the person was able to stir up emotions within me. That is why I felt a certain loss with his death (I never had any feelings stired by those unknown people in the plane). and that's the difference.

And I guess that there isn't a single celebrity, who wouldn't stir up some feelings (honestly I can't imagine a person becoming famous by not doing things - even millionare children, who basically did nothing to be famous but appear in the newspapers, envoke some feelings; if nothing else envy for their wealth, or resent for their spoled lifestyle).

And I believe that is why people react differently to celebreties dying. Off course it always depends on the celebrity and the target group of the fans how it would manifest itself. Example if Justin Timberlake would die, there would probably be thousands of teenage girls crying publically - and the rest of the public probably mocking them for being so silly. But when Osvaldo Cavandoli died most people didn't even notice (or knew who he was), but those who did silently payed thei respect and went on their way (with mases being ignorant about it). And I'm convinced you're mostly bothered by the reactions of masses to the deaths of certain celebrities, than of people acctually feeling grief for certain people they never really personally met.

[Fruit Pie Jones]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sebatianos @ Sep 18 2007, 03:53 AM) [snapback]311543[/snapback]</div>

But when Osvaldo Cavandoli died most people didn't even notice (or knew who he was), but those who did silently payed thei respect and went on their way (with mases being ignorant about it).[/b]

I'll admit to being one of those who didn't recognize that name when I read it, but now that I've looked him up, I'm a bit sad that he has died. I saw some episodes of La Linea when I was a kid as part of a show called The Great Space Coaster, and I loved it. I even drew some very similar cartoons of my own, plagiarism being the most sincere form of flattery. So even though I didn't know Mr. Cavandoli's name until now, I don't think expressing a little sadness at his passing makes me a hypocrite or a poseur. It does show that I'm nostalgic for my childhood, and I certainly won't deny that here.

[chumloofah]

Bang on, fella.
It's the hypocrisy of caring when somebody who could well be a complete tool for all you personally know goes when odds are somebody far nicer died at exactly the same time.

[JJXB]

celebrity deaths have never been a crying matter for me personally. if they were stupid in life and they died today (example: paris hilton) i'd be quite happy to be insulting them in death since that person wouldn't deserve respect, no matter what state they were in. if they were actually worth any respect, i'd give them that respect.

my stance on jokes is that i can quite happily read jokes about recently deceased but if someone doesn't want to hear them, i won't tell out of respect to their feelings (example:my other half doesn't like the fact pavrotti jokes are circulating so i won't tell them if i come across them)

[Tito]

Well, in the case of celebrities' deaths, I wouldn't talk about grief at all. Giving our condolences in public is a kind of habit, and at the end I feel like it becomes a showing of courtesy rather than a true showing of feelings.

My personal opinion is that if you aren't sincere it is better to shut up. I don't like being politically correct, so I don't think anybody should feel obliged to say a few words in the memory of someone he knew from the media, even recognized to be an important person, but didn't pay a role on his life.

So, grief? It isn't a matter of grief in most cases. A tribute, I would understand and even join. But grief? There are very few people that, in my opinion, could feel a real grief about the death of a famous person (Reamus, for example, could be one of those in the case of Pavarotti).

Condolences are just an hypocrisy.

Another thing is that we are mainly refering to people that were famous for a strong reason. Colin McRae won several world rally championships, and Luciano Pavarotti was one of the best voices in the world. I guess we could call that "fullfilled lives", and that is another reason against general grief. Why should we cry for the death of a person who probably achieved his dreams? He was probably happy enough about that when his time came.

Hope some of this makes some sense...

[Playbahnosh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tito @ Sep 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]311673[/snapback]</div>

Well, in the case of celebrities' deaths, I wouldn't talk about grief at all. Giving our condolences in public is a kind of habit, and at the end I feel like it becomes a showing of courtesy rather than a true showing of feelings.

My personal opinion is that if you aren't sincere it is better to shut up. I don't like being politically correct, so I don't think anybody should feel obliged to say a few words in the memory of someone he knew from the media, even recognized to be an important person, but didn't pay a role on his life.

So, grief? It isn't a matter of grief in most cases. A tribute, I would understand and even join. But grief? There are very few people that, in my opinion, could feel a real grief about the death of a famous person (Reamus, for example, could be one of those in the case of Pavarotti).[/b]

Playing with words. People having feelings is a natural thing. Some people feeling sad, because somebody died they liked could be understood. Feeling sad (to the point of crying even) because somebody dies, and tell, that you feel sorry because that somebody died you liked, is natural. Death is the one single thing that connects us all. If somebody dies, you lose that person. You won't hear that person talk, sing, laugh, tell stories, see him walk, sleep, drive a racecar or sing an opera...simply put, that somebody won't entertain you anymore. This doesn't go just for celebrities.

They say, that there are only two reasons people remember somebody: because he/she solved problems, or created them. I simplify this a little. We remember those people who amuse us. Be it positive or negative term. You will remember Luciano Pavarotti because you are amazed at how he can sing, and you remember Hitler because he is freaking you out killing all those people. (@ everybody) Do something for me, think back to your childhood. Now remember your friends. Which one of your old friends can you remember most accuratly? Face, voice, personality...etc. Bingo, the ones that amused you the most. You won't remember that grey nobody sitting at the back of the classroom, but you will remember the "class clown". And you will remember the bully that took your lunch money every Thursday...

My point is, that who you remember, you get, to a certain point, emotionally attached. Some more than others. If that somebody dies for some reason, you will miss that person, because he/she won't do "the thing" that made you remember that ceartain person anymore, so you won't get amused (in the bully case, for all the wrong reasons, but still).

You're with me here?

Condolences are just an hypocrisy.[/b]

People saying condolences are hypocrisy, ARE the hypocrites.

Why should we cry for the death of a person who probably achieved his dreams? He was probably happy enough about that when his time came. [/b]

We shouldn't be sad if somebody (in a way or another) close to us dies, because...why exactly? I don't see your point. You think those people who are happy about their life are not as important as people who are downright miserable? Maybe I'm a jerk, but I don't see how THAT makes sense. When somebody dies (religious stuff aside) is sad, no matter who the person at hand is. You think a homeless, poor, ill and miserable guy deserves more respect in his death than a world famous opera singer, just because he wasn't as happy with his life? You think death is easier or better when you are on good terms with yourself? Death is just what it is, the end of a life. From our point of view (the living) it's sad, it's always is. Someday you will die dude. Duh! You say that people shouldn't respect you in death if you'll have a good life? I don't think so...

[Tulac]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Playbahnosh @ Sep 19 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]311679[/snapback]</div>

They say, that there are only two reasons people remember somebody: because he/she solved problems, or created them. I simplify this a little. We remember those people who amuse us. Be it positive or negative term. You will remember Luciano Pavarotti because you are amazed at how he can sing, and you remember Hitler because he is freaking you out killing all those people. (@ everybody) Do something for me, think back to your childhood. Now remember your friends. Which one of your old friends can you remember most accuratly? Face, voice, personality...etc. Bingo, the ones that amused you the most. You won't remember that grey nobody sitting at the back of the classroom, but you will remember the "class clown". And you will remember the bully that took your lunch money every Thursday...
[/b]

The problem here is that you won't feel bad about Colin McRae for anything but his name? 90% heard of him because he had a rally game and I can tell you that most didn't even play it, but they still "grieve" for his death. Why? OK you can say he achieved something in the WRC(one championship won). But there are more successful rally drivers (Juha Kankkunen, 4 championships) who if they would die today, nobody would care. Why? Because they didn't have their name on a game. For me this is pure hypocrisy.

[Playbahnosh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tulac @ Sep 19 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]311779[/snapback]</div>

The problem here is that you won't feel bad about Colin McRae for anything but his name? 90% heard of him because he had a rally game and I can tell you that most didn't even play it, but they still "grieve" for his death. Why? OK you can say he achieved something in the WRC(one championship won). But there are more successful rally drivers (Juha Kankkunen, 4 championships) who if they would die today, nobody would care. Why? Because they didn't have their name on a game. For me this is pure hypocrisy.
[/b]

Thats why I added "especially for those into motorsports" and not "games". I only added the last section as a...kinda trivia fact if you will, not because I remember him BECAUSE of those games. I like motorsports and I liked him as a WRC driver, not because of the name of some rally games. And the fact that his little boy and two others died with him made it worth mentioning.

Then again, the golden rule still stands: if you don't have anything worth to post in a topic than DON'T POST, just for the sake of telling "I'm not interested in him, nor do I care about his death." That's just stupid.