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[twillight]

I hate it. I ragequitted after 7 minutes it is so bad.

[Japo]

I have high hopes about it.......

PS if you post spoilers use the

tag

Force

[Capo]

Im very disappointed too, not as bas as Episode 1 but almost

[twillight]

Originally Posted by Japo

I have high hopes about it.......

PS if you post spoilers use the

tag

Force

I'll stay generic:

- the characters are one-dimensional, do not develop. Most of them don't even have names (aside the credits at the end).
- the evil guys are not the least threatening. The Masked Sith is even

cries on screen

spoiler

.
- there are too many unexplained things (heck, there is anything explained?) starting with why the Republic don't fight the New World Order?
- WW2 nazis instead of space-nazis.
- everyone lacks motivation.
- the "movie" has no goal.
- it is a Han Solo Special, not a new movie
- too many Deus Ex Machina. There are like 7-10 of it.
- medium-actors under bad director = not convincing (especially the black guy)
- major plotholes

why did the black guy come back?

spoiler

- bad story-decisions

why is the ancient-sith hologram?

spoiler

The entire First Order/Empire is blown up at the end.

MASSIVE SPOILER, RUINS ALL YOUR HOPES, WORSE THEN BRUCE WILLIS IS DEAD

[Smiling Spectre]

Seen it yesterday. Good movie, actually. I was truly annoyed only by lightsabers with its now selective damages.

[twillight]

Originally Posted by Smiling Spectre

Seen it yesterday. Good movie, actually. I was truly annoyed only by lightsabers with its now selective damages.

How is it a good movie? I beg you justify your position, because there are a hundred reason why it isn't.

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally Posted by twillight

How is it a good movie? I beg you justify your position, because there are a hundred reason why it isn't.

Well, I cannot justify "good", it's personal. But I can fight your "bad", if you want. Let's go to spoilers at whole, because it's too much of it to distinct one from another.

All movie is obvious the part 4 plot, played differently, as everything goes with other characters (not only actors!) and in the other circumstances. But overall plot is too similar to ignore it. So I'll mention part 4 where appropriate.

Originally Posted by twillight

- the characters are one-dimensional, do not develop. Most of them don't even have names (aside the credits at the end).

Just as in part 4. Obi-Wan, Vader, Luke, Solo, Leya, Chewbakka, and two droids. Can you remember anyone else?

- the evil guys are not the least threatening. The Masked Sith is even
cries on screen

.
He is ravaging teenager who was told that he must true to Vader legacy. What can you expect? Question is, _why_ it's teen who made into wannabe-Vader, but I hope it will be explaned later.

Also, he is threatening enough for everyone around him. So mask works obviously.

why the Republic don't fight the New World Order?

All classical trilogy is about personal business (unlike 1-3), so you hardly can expect clear explanation for heroes who are basically no one right from the start. How much info _Luke_ knew about Republic/Empire withstand?

Speaking about real politic behind that, I bet that economy is mostly ruined on the both sides after Empire fallen. And Rebels never was rich, unlike Empire. Also, who told you that Republic didn't fight Order? We didn't see it? But what we _seen_ at all?

- WW2 nazis instead of space-nazis.

Actually, except zig and red/black motif, I didn't see much difference with Empire. And why not? Nazi could be re-invented specially for this "special-breeded" troops.

- everyone lacks motivation.

Oh, come on. Solo went with Ray because he haven't much choice initially, and then he is in pursue of the son. Ray is full of fairy-tales about Rebels, so she dies from desire to be faithful to Jedi - and Kayle helps her with it, with all this Vader nonsense. Kayle want to be Vader and for that he tries to copy all Vader moves, including personal apprenticeship. And black guy plainly fallen in love with Ray. What else do you need?

- the "movie" has no goal.

Umm. It's the one episode of war. And inside of it there is one distinct goal of the Starkiller destruction. Successfull! Just as part 4, actually.

- too many Deus Ex Machina. There are like 7-10 of it.

Just as with part 4, no? "It's magic" works here just as there. Ok, "Force".

- medium-actors under bad director = not convincing (especially the black guy)

Umm... He was quite convincing for me. Well, what's wrong with him for you?

why did the black guy come back?

Love? He totally could leave Ray to the Solo, but not to the Order.

why is the ancient-sith hologram?

Umm... why not? There could be wast array of explanations, and most simple: sith is too small. Like Yoda maybe. So he need to mask this and be intimidating, no?

The entire First Order/Empire is blown up at the end.

Naah, it's only most ambitious Order project that was destroyed, not Empire at all. Just as Death Star wasn't Empire.

Wall of text

[twillight]

What the hell are you babbling about? Your refutal is NONSENSE, and your lack of defending your own position and mark (as consequence) a film as "good" for "not being bad" is just DISTURBING.

- you try to say "In SW 4 there was only a handful of remembered characters" when i say SW 7's characters were sketchy, had no character, or hold any ineterest for the viewer. You simply don't touch the topic.
But the point you actually address I give you MORE characters I DO remember form SW 4:
- Owen
- Beru
- the Blond Rebel
- bug-eyed droid
- many aliens from the bar (wolfman, hammerhead-shark alien, Mr. Satan, oboe music band, child-size-alien-squeeking-for-drink)
- bartender
- "These aren't the droid's we're looking for" stormtrooper
- boink-stormtrooper
- "Must have been droids" stromtrooper
- Porkins
- Wedge Antilles
- "This space-station is invulnerable" general
- General Tarkin
- afraid-of-Chewbacca's-roar-empire-dorid
- red R2 with malfinctioning motivator
- "have you seen the wacchamacalling" stormtroopers at Obi Wan disabling the attractor-field
So ye, I rmemeber A TON of characters.

The problem with SW 7 I don't care even for the main characters. They are flat, boring - you forget them when you leave the room.

-----------

For Ren I expect him to be THREATENING. I don't really care why he turned into the Dark Side. Ye, it can be the basic for a spinoff, but has nothing to do with SW 7. I even like the choice of actor. I totally LUB his tantrums (and the two stormtroopers are excellent turning back). But he's simply not menacing.
You want the guy to be a Big Bad? I can even give you some tips:
- leave the mask on until Han
- make the scene with Han less predictable (I have some pretty good ideas if you're interested)
- don't make him cry
- better use of camera-angles
- more black/white contrast on him. Never let his face shine in light - add matte white makeup
- don't let his ass kicked by some amateur after showing him stopping a laser-beam!
- don't let him act as a simple pawn to some hologram. Give him authority, and make his doubts as SLIPS, not as doubts. Addin the Vader-helmet scene to the Snoke-scene without interruption would help a lot.
Also, do not allow Hux to the holo-sith. That takes away prettymuch all authority from all the First Order Elite.

You know Ren is NOT a teenager. He's a 20s. 20 to 25. He's a full-pledged sith with years of training behind him, leader of the First Order, who stops laserbeams (please, don't let the Force act w/o attention! Yoda, with 800 years of training had to concentrate on lifting the X-win, ok?).

----------------

Neither of the two trilogy is "about personal business". They are all about "we fight the evil guys" on the level of the Galaxy on the grand scale. They are "one man CAN change the flow of history".

But on the other hand my disappointment comes not knowing ANYTHING of the characters, wether good or bad.

Third: The New Republic didn't have to be strong. The Rebels were about leadership, not local production. They change who you pay your taxed, and some laws (like no shooting people just to rise fear), but otherwise there's no problem.
On the other hand the Republic went to "restore peace and justice TO THE GALAXY". Not "part" of the Galaxy", but THE Galaxy.
Third: the giga-deathstar just from the side of economy rises soooo many questions. It is too big. It destroys not just planets but suns in other solarsystems as collateral damage. And from non-economicalview it is too sudden and simple, and iteration. I could accept a smaller third DS, but such a hugh-one? Unnoticed? And so easily destroyed? It just doesn't add up.

--------------

The "Hux motivational speech" is the only thing which is an attempt to give character the the FO. But it is again like looking in a sketchbook. Aside that it sounds ww2 nazi, looks ww2 nazi, even the Sieg Heil effect is taken from an actual ww2 AH-speech.

In SW 3-6 we saw what the Empire is: military dictatorship based on burocracy and technocracy. That's its character.
FO shows no character aside Hux's speech.

--------------

Solo went with Rey, because Solo had connection with the Rebels, and saw they need a ride.
BUT why did Solo leave Leia and the Rebels/Republic? He really just let the Falcon stay stolen? How is he still alive after breathing cyanide? Why he's traffiking Extremly Dangerous Biological Weapons to some evil guy?

Rey... Rey is pretty much a decent character on the field of motivation, but:
- how does she stay alive on 1/4 rations when a person needs 3 ration a day?
- how can she speak robot, what is entirely impossible?
- how can she beat a full-pledged sith without any training?
- how does she use The Voice from Dune? Aren't we in a different franchise?
- how does she know the Falcon better then Han, who built it himself?
I could go with her being top-engineer, even a lucky pilot, topping with resisting Ren's attempt of telepathy, but stretching my suspension of disbelief has a limit.

Ren seems evident, but why he's a crybaby? Where's his loyality? His family? Vader? The First Order? Snoke? What is his motivation? Why did he save Luke being killed? Why is he after Luke now?

Finn ("the black guy") DID NOT FALL IN LOVE WITH ANYONE. Where did you get this nonsense?
Also, answer me how he becomes a Fighting Force when he gets shock at the first glimpse of death (of his own comrade)?
Why does he come back after finally leaving? He has no connection to any other character, nor to the story. His only motivation is to get the fok from the FO because he ... has phobia from blood? Disagrees with the FO's goals? And how is he able to get away with the Fo-conditioning? How does a person who is practically a pacifist gets to crushing a former-close-associate in a trash-compactor laughing?
Just doesn't make sense.

Now talk about Hux. Why is he there? Why he has contact with holo-sith? He does nothing, he's not part of the story in any sense aside "empire general - tick" on some list.

Phasma? It's a male, a female or an it? Human or alien? What's the role of the character? Why - despite the FO-conditioning and the special armor marking Plasma as Big Evil - surrenders for the first word? And as we know Fazma is in the next movie how did chrome-trooper escape from being crushed in a trash-compactor on a blowing up star-planet-spacestation-thing with no ship leaving?
The character is not even special is we assume it is a she, because there's another female-voiced stormtrooper when the Empire leaves the pub.

Snoke? What's that doing in this film? What is it? A sith? Why is it a hologram? (being a hologram makes it a cheap rip-off of the Emperor. Would work a thousand time better if it'd been that giant) How and what power it has on the FO? Whatit wants? What's its role?

The Rebel Pilot: why does it not escape while can? Why not try to get back his all-important robot? What's the reason him being in the movie at all, especially after Finn escaped? Heck, what's the role of Finn on the grand scale?
He's an unrecognisable face anyway.

The Republic: why not fighting the FO? Why no interest in the 3rdDS?

The FO: What do they want? How big they are? What's their long-term plan? Where did they get the money and technology for the thingy? What is their structure? Hux and Ren are at what level of their ranks? How are they related to holo-Voldemort?

Luke: why is he important at all?

Luke's trained jedis: where are they?

other jedis, siths, the order of the inquisitors, the order of ren: where are they? What happened to them? Did the order of inquisitors all committed suicide after all known jedis went extinct?

The Rebels: why do they send Rey to Luke? Why they send Luke the Blue Lightsaber?

Leia: why she murns with Rey and not with Chewie?

Max von Sido: why noone told him this is not Dune? He's definitely not "an old friend". Could we re-capture his scenes with Lando?

orange yoda from Sin City: she's definitely not "an old friend". Why leaves the artifact so open? Why runs a pub? Who is she and what she doing in this film?

-------------

You say "the movie is an episode of a war". What war? What episode?
Not against The First Order, because it got destroyed in this movie. And while Sw 1-6 were ALL "one episode of a war", each in itself was a standalone movie too. Except SW 2. Ye, SW 2 was very bad.

--------------

SW 4 had ONE Deus Ex Machina, and that was part of the story (The Force WAS stronger than "your technological monstrosity").

SW 7 on the other hand had like a LOT, and none supported by the story:
#1 Luke is gone without explanation,so we don't have like a jedi-army.
#2 The First Order appears out of nowhere. No idea why The New Republic allowed this.
#3 despite searching the pendrive with flamethrowers no harm done.
#4 Scavanger-girl does not sell the robot
#5 Scavanger-girl helps the robot
#6 the Falcon is there!
#7 Rey is a pilot!
#8 Han accidentally stumbles into theFalcon!
#9 Han's associates accidentally stumbles into Han!
#10 Han and Chewie can breath cyanide!
#11 Otygh don't eat Finn like did with everyone else!
#12 we had the plan for the 3rd DS the entire time!
#13 3rd DS has the EXACT same vulnerability as the previous (previous two) DS!
#14 we spot the weak point in the plans in 2 seconds!
#15 eight X-wing is enough to fight an entire planet of army!
#16 there's Rey!
#17 there's Phasma, and does what we ask without any hesitation!
#18 earthquake!
#19 Rebel Pilot was NOT in the tie-fighter!
#20 we had the lightsabre the entire time!
#21 Finn comes back instead of leaving!
#22 R2D2 comes alive at the critical moment
#23 Rey knows The Force better then a trained sith
etc.

This is so much Deus Ex Machina any writer would laugh their ass off. This is total garbage.

-----------

As acting, and especially Finn:
The guy basically did one thing: was afraid. He was afraid even when he"d to be thirsty. That scene is just pathetic.
He already panics unnecessarily at the beginning (not the "oh, my comrade is dead "shot), so it is very noticeable.

--------------

again: where did you get Finn is in love with Rey, wether mutual or not? Nothing says he is. Not the text, the subtext or the acting. You can't just put a side not "oh, by the way, these characters who never showed any affiliation to each other are totally in love". That's not how even literature works.

--------------


The Death Star (again) is an over-the-top-priced mage-project. That's why the Empire built ONE, and not a million.
This DS was 10 times bigger then the previous versions, and made for a ~country much smaller. So that means it had that more soldiers on it, from a much less population. It was so hugh and expensive, and Wunderwaffe it had to store like 90% of the FO's army. And when it blows up we see who leaves the explosion: 3 X-fighter and the Falcon. That's it. No FO-ship. everyone there got dead, and there's no more soldiers as substitute. FO is destroyed by that one explosion.

spoiler

[Smiling Spectre]

Originally Posted by twillight

What the hell are you babbling about? Your refutal is NONSENSE, and your lack of defending your own position and mark (as consequence) a film as "good" for "not being bad" is just DISTURBING.

Let's stop it. I don't like your attitude, your CAPITAL WORDS and your obviously biased attitude against SW7. I don't want to make adequately hate speech, and have no will to counter your every argument, even if I don't think that most of it valid at all. I can answer your "deus ex" replies, just as experiment, but I can predict outcome anyway.

#1 Luke is gone without explanation,so we don't have like a jedi-army.

Umm... Explanation "Ren betrayed him, and this broke Luke's will to fight" is not good enough for you?

#2 The First Order appears out of nowhere. No idea why The New Republic allowed this.

Yeah, after fall of Empire it was totally unexpected that forces of evil will not disappear with it. What a strange and unique situation!

#3 despite searching the pendrive with flamethrowers no harm done.

Yeah, they searched for the pendrive all this time, right. And consequent interrogation was only routine torture because of inherent evilness of Ren.

#4 Scavanger-girl does not sell the robot
#5 Scavanger-girl helps the robot

Umm... When you next time will find unique artifact of the unknown value, you'll sell it in the closest pawnshop for the first price offered, I am sure. Especially if price will be suspiciously high for the worthless piece of junk.

#6 the Falcon is there!

Ex Machina moment, right. Totally not like in ep4 where it was Solo along with Falcon, no.

#7 Rey is a pilot!

Umm, I don't think that there is much harder than car driving after all. Not Han-level driving, of course, but, come on, ship is quite standard, and girl is dreamt of old machinery and tech-savvy too.

#8 Han accidentally stumbles into theFalcon!
#9 Han's associates accidentally stumbles into Han!

I believe, there wasn't "accidentally" here. Han personally told that he detected Falcon. Associates followed the same trail, obviously.

#10 Han and Chewie can breath cyanide!

There wasn't cyanide. Rey _expected_ cyanide leak, but it didn't happen - otherwise you must admit that Rey and Finn breath cyanide too - they removed masks as soon as seen Han.

#11 Otygh don't eat Finn like did with everyone else!

Otyugh already eaten several people, so he could be fed. Or wounded. He is not invulnerable, only very dangerous after all.

#12 we had the plan for the 3rd DS the entire time!

Ummm... Computer model of big sphere with vague external features now is "plan for DS"? Cool idea.

#13 3rd DS has the EXACT same vulnerability as the previous (previous two) DS!

Yeah, energy cannon #3 with planetary level explosives have counter-explosion measures, just as previous two cannons. And explode after destroying it, just as they. Surprise. If you'll make energy cannon yourself, make sure that it'll have non-explosive ammo!

#14 we spot the weak point in the plans in 2 seconds!

Aha. And by "we" we means "Finn" who lived there 20+ years.

#15 eight X-wing is enough to fight an entire planet of army!

Umm, where you got this "entire planet army"? There was forests and rivers, not barracks and hangars as far as I seen.

#18 earthquake!

Pure EM moment, right.

#19 Rebel Pilot was NOT in the tie-fighter!

Actually, I was much more surprised that gunner had parachute, and pilot is not. In reality pilot evacuates, and I see nothing too incredible in it.

#20 we had the lightsabre the entire time!

So what?

#21 Finn comes back instead of leaving!

I told you my point of view.

#22 R2D2 comes alive at the critical moment

This is not explained, but not necessary unexplainable. It could have some trigger, or receive some info. Like Luke's map. Because it's not clear where he got it.

#23 Rey knows The Force better then a trained sith

Umm, really? Where?

This DS was 10 times bigger then the previous versions, and made for a ~country much smaller.

Umm, actually, it's not DS ten times bigger. It's "shell" ten times bigger. "DS" embedded inside planet, not build to that size.

So that means it had that more soldiers on it, from a much less population. It was so hugh and expensive, and Wunderwaffe it had to store like 90% of the FO's army.

Wrong conclusion. Actually, based on given info, they had garrison of specially-bred soldiers, several tie-fighters for defence... and that's mostly all. Maybe Order hadn't more near. Maybe they feels it unnecessary. Maybe they didn't want to draw unwanted attention. Or maybe it was expendable project right from the start. It's not obvious at all.

And when it blows up we see who leaves the explosion: 3 X-fighter and the Falcon. That's it. No FO-ship. everyone there got dead, and there's no more soldiers as substitute. FO is destroyed by that one explosion.

See above. As for me, it's destruction of two FO projects in one: Starkiller and special soldiers (and even second can be only one site from several), that's all. Snoke even didn't lose his precious wanna-be-sith in result

spoiler

[twillight]

Originally Posted by Smiling Spectre

Let's stop it. I don't like your attitude, your CAPITAL WORDS and your obviously biased attitude against SW7. I don't want to make adequately hate speech, and have no will to counter your every argument, even if I don't think that most of it valid at all. I can answer your "deus ex" replies, just as experiment, but I can predict outcome anyway.

If you want to "stop", and "don't want to make a hate-speech", then why you DO it anyway? I don't like being threatened for a WELL-REASONED opinion just because you're a moderator and I'm not. I don't like your attitude either.



1) No, it isn't. Not after what he did in Empire Strikes Back.

2) You are shown totally biased when strawmaning one half of the sentence instead of reading it full.

3) You're avoiding the subject, so I'm avoiding you.

4) Uhm, when you live on quarter-rations and you're suddenly offered 1,000,000 $$$, and no other buyer in your vicinity - yes, you DO sell your stuff.

-----------

Why bother talking to you? You don't have an opinion, you don't offer a perspective, you are simply stating something and want others to follow it zealously, building an apology around which is as transparent as glass, and you're best reach would be "it is not bad so it's good" anyway which is just totally ridiculous.
"Not bad" is just "not bad", "ok", or "oh well, it's passing", and NOT good.
Not that Swii would be good in any sense...