Let's start with a callous comment:

The only thing that we can really learn from the death of Princess Diana is that being famous does not excuse you from buckling up.

Here's another one -

I don't care if you are Elvis, dying on the toilet is a really embarrassing way to die - however, it will not affect your record sales post-mortem.

OK, so I'm guessing this is the "serious" topic opened for this.

Let's see where to start, to develop a possible discusion...

Personally I take death as a part of life, the part of life that everybody (even Disney although some won't admit it) reach in the end. There is therefore nothing unusual about it.

Deaths may be tragic, a relief or a natural way of time passing humanity.

A tragic death would be, if a family with young children dies in a car, because a drunken fart crashed into them and killed them all.

A relief would be if a person has been suffering with no chance of improvement and couldn't function in life anymore (example a person turning into a vegetable who couldn't move - sorry, if you ask me, I'd prefer to die, then to lay on bed and be able to do nothing but blink and feel pain with every breath I take).

A natural way, when a person passed from living to dead due to a natural cause of events. I count deaths of different illnesses in the same category. If your lifestyle included risky sexual relationship and you got AIDS and died in your thirties, I still consider it a natural death (it was your lifestyle). I'd call it a tragedy if you'd gotten AIDS during a routine check-up where a careless nurse didn't change the needle to take your blood sample and you got infected.

The way of your death does not (or at least doesn't ot me) effect my way of feeling about it.

Grief is a comletely different thing.

I'd grief if I'd feel a personal loss over the death of a person, and would not grief if I didn't feel it.

With that being said, I completely understand why people feel grief with celebrity deaths and not because some unknown people died. It's a big difference.

If I hear about an airplane crash and dozens of people die, I might get upset, I would feel sorry for the families and I would - if I could - try to prevent it from heppening again. But I feel no grief. Those people were not less importaint, but I knew nothing about them, I felt nothing towards them (except the interhuman respect I feel for all people, and even most of the animals and plants, simply because all are living creatures).

On the other hand I would feel grief (although I might not be shocked) when a celebrity dies). Good example was the recent death of Luciano Pavarotti. I don't care how he died. He was of an age that death wasn't a shock and he (at least I hope he didn't, because I wish it for no-one) didn't really feel much pain. So his death wasn't tragic, but I did feel a personal loss. I admired the person and his art. I enjoyed his singing and the person was able to stir up emotions within me. That is why I felt a certain loss with his death (I never had any feelings stired by those unknown people in the plane). and that's the difference.

And I guess that there isn't a single celebrity, who wouldn't stir up some feelings (honestly I can't imagine a person becoming famous by not doing things - even millionare children, who basically did nothing to be famous but appear in the newspapers, envoke some feelings; if nothing else envy for their wealth, or resent for their spoled lifestyle).

And I believe that is why people react differently to celebreties dying. Off course it always depends on the celebrity and the target group of the fans how it would manifest itself. Example if Justin Timberlake would die, there would probably be thousands of teenage girls crying publically - and the rest of the public probably mocking them for being so silly. But when Osvaldo Cavandoli died most people didn't even notice (or knew who he was), but those who did silently payed thei respect and went on their way (with mases being ignorant about it). And I'm convinced you're mostly bothered by the reactions of masses to the deaths of certain celebrities, than of people acctually feeling grief for certain people they never really personally met.

Bang on, fella.
It's the hypocrisy of caring when somebody who could well be a complete tool for all you personally know goes when odds are somebody far nicer died at exactly the same time.

celebrity deaths have never been a crying matter for me personally. if they were stupid in life and they died today (example: paris hilton) i'd be quite happy to be insulting them in death since that person wouldn't deserve respect, no matter what state they were in. if they were actually worth any respect, i'd give them that respect.

my stance on jokes is that i can quite happily read jokes about recently deceased but if someone doesn't want to hear them, i won't tell out of respect to their feelings (example:my other half doesn't like the fact pavrotti jokes are circulating so i won't tell them if i come across them)

Well, in the case of celebrities' deaths, I wouldn't talk about grief at all. Giving our condolences in public is a kind of habit, and at the end I feel like it becomes a showing of courtesy rather than a true showing of feelings.

My personal opinion is that if you aren't sincere it is better to shut up. I don't like being politically correct, so I don't think anybody should feel obliged to say a few words in the memory of someone he knew from the media, even recognized to be an important person, but didn't pay a role on his life.

So, grief? It isn't a matter of grief in most cases. A tribute, I would understand and even join. But grief? There are very few people that, in my opinion, could feel a real grief about the death of a famous person (Reamus, for example, could be one of those in the case of Pavarotti).

Condolences are just an hypocrisy.

Another thing is that we are mainly refering to people that were famous for a strong reason. Colin McRae won several world rally championships, and Luciano Pavarotti was one of the best voices in the world. I guess we could call that "fullfilled lives", and that is another reason against general grief. Why should we cry for the death of a person who probably achieved his dreams? He was probably happy enough about that when his time came.

Hope some of this makes some sense...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tito @ Sep 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]311673[/snapback]</div>Playing with words. People having feelings is a natural thing. Some people feeling sad, because somebody died they liked could be understood. Feeling sad (to the point of crying even) because somebody dies, and tell, that you feel sorry because that somebody died you liked, is natural. Death is the one single thing that connects us all. If somebody dies, you lose that person. You won't hear that person talk, sing, laugh, tell stories, see him walk, sleep, drive a racecar or sing an opera...simply put, that somebody won't entertain you anymore. This doesn't go just for celebrities.

They say, that there are only two reasons people remember somebody: because he/she solved problems, or created them. I simplify this a little. We remember those people who amuse us. Be it positive or negative term. You will remember Luciano Pavarotti because you are amazed at how he can sing, and you remember Hitler because he is freaking you out killing all those people. (@ everybody) Do something for me, think back to your childhood. Now remember your friends. Which one of your old friends can you remember most accuratly? Face, voice, personality...etc. Bingo, the ones that amused you the most. You won't remember that grey nobody sitting at the back of the classroom, but you will remember the "class clown". And you will remember the bully that took your lunch money every Thursday...

My point is, that who you remember, you get, to a certain point, emotionally attached. Some more than others. If that somebody dies for some reason, you will miss that person, because he/she won't do "the thing" that made you remember that ceartain person anymore, so you won't get amused (in the bully case, for all the wrong reasons, but still).

You're with me here?

People saying condolences are hypocrisy, ARE the hypocrites.

We shouldn't be sad if somebody (in a way or another) close to us dies, because...why exactly? I don't see your point. You think those people who are happy about their life are not as important as people who are downright miserable? Maybe I'm a jerk, but I don't see how THAT makes sense. When somebody dies (religious stuff aside) is sad, no matter who the person at hand is. You think a homeless, poor, ill and miserable guy deserves more respect in his death than a world famous opera singer, just because he wasn't as happy with his life? You think death is easier or better when you are on good terms with yourself? Death is just what it is, the end of a life. From our point of view (the living) it's sad, it's always is. Someday you will die dude. Duh! You say that people shouldn't respect you in death if you'll have a good life? I don't think so...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Playbahnosh @ Sep 18 2007, 11:48 PM) [snapback]311679[/snapback]</div>You got me completely wrong. I wasn't talking about respect, but grief. That's why I mentioned the tribute thing, instead of the usual showing of condolence. As you said, death will come to us all, it is a natural thing, so when a person who througout his life has achieved many thing dies, I find that respect, nor grief, is the appropiate thing. When a person's life is wasted (like in the case of Colin's son), then grief is understandable.

I remember...the first year of my wrestling fandomness...when Eddie Guerrero died.

Eddie was a good wrestler and a person I always liked to watch on TV. He had skill, he had charisma, he was funny and he knew how to work in the ring either as funny face or obnoxious heel.

Then, all of sudden, he died. Heart attack, which was caused by the years of usage of steroids. Eddie also had drug and alcohol problems (he was clean at the time tought). When I first heard about it, I had a feeling like my best friend all of sudden gave me a huge slap. Like, a part of me just died.

Few weeks later, I watched two special tributes show's. The show's had matches, classic Eddie-moments and unscripted, emotional speeches from the friends and co-workers. As a sensitive person, it was hard for me to watch it. I was crying a lot and when I was ready to go to bed, the pillow was wet from all the tears. Thats when I realised that I was a fan.

EDIT: This topic was closed, but I took a liberty of re-opening it. Just keep talking about celebrity deaths and dont do any jokes about it. Its tasteless and may insult fans.

I felt a little sad when I heard that Alex the parrot died. Seriously. You can all point and laugh at me now. :)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Playbahnosh @ Sep 19 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]311679[/snapback]</div>The problem here is that you won't feel bad about Colin McRae for anything but his name? 90% heard of him because he had a rally game and I can tell you that most didn't even play it, but they still "grieve" for his death. Why? OK you can say he achieved something in the WRC(one championship won). But there are more successful rally drivers (Juha Kankkunen, 4 championships) who if they would die today, nobody would care. Why? Because they didn't have their name on a game. For me this is pure hypocrisy.

I taking my hat off for the huge achievements and performances that he was famous for in Rally sports.
He was a brave Scotsman driving throught the desert. No rain must have been weird for him. ;)
I think it's sad.

He's sort a Wayne Gretzky that most sport-interested people will keep in mind. :kosta:

Well that's the point, he wasn't that much of a special rally driver, can anyone else tell me which other rally drivers won the WRC in the last 15 years? Really the only reason he is so famous is the game. I very much doubt there are that many WRC fans in the world.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tulac @ Sep 19 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]311781[/snapback]</div>Sorry, I knew him before I knew that this gae existed... :huh: And I think I could tell who he is when I see him on a pic and I'm not a rally fan... :unsure:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tito @ Sep 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]311673[/snapback]</div>Woudln't say so, no.

I mean , depends what happens, they could be, but I doubt they usually are.

Condolences are said to the people who were personally close to the decesed. I wouldn't call up Luciano's family to give my condolences to them, because I don't know them. I also wouldn't give my condolences to a fan of Collin now that he died, because I don't think he'd deserve them (even if he'd be devistated by the loss of his favorite driver), nor would I accept any condolences when Pavarotti died, because I'm not intitled to them.

But this still doesn't mean, I can't feel grief. Greif is a selfish feeling really. You feel the loss, because somebody who died has passed away. You don't feel sorry for the person who died (because he's dead), but you feel sorry for yourself (because you lost the person). Personally I really got emotional when I saw the performance of Pavarotti at the opening of the Winter Olympics of 2006 in Torino (he sang Nesun Dorma), because at that point I realized, not only how great and moving the performance in itself was, but also that there will never be such a performance again, so I won't be able to see or hear it. The era of Pavarotti is over.

Giving tribute and paying respect is another thing. I respect him for his musical achievements (I never cared for anything else about him, so I don't even know what kind of a life he lived) and if there would be a memorial concert at the time of his funeral (by some local tenors) I'd gladly attend (not just to give tribute, but also for the musical value of it).

For Collin McRee I wouldn't even open a topic, but since one was there I have posted in it. I do generally wish everybody to Rest in Peace when the time comes, because I wouldn't like anybody wishing me otherwise. It's not hypocracy it's piety. For the same reason I never tell jokes at a cemetary (although I sometimes go there for various reasons - not always paying respect to somebody) and I never really talk loudly while there. I'd find it hypocritical though if I'd be bringing flowers to a grave of a celebrity simply because I'd want somebody to notice me at the grave and maybe take a picture (like visiting the grave of Grace Kelly or something).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tulac @ Sep 19 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]311779[/snapback]</div>Thats why I added "especially for those into motorsports" and not "games". I only added the last section as a...kinda trivia fact if you will, not because I remember him BECAUSE of those games. I like motorsports and I liked him as a WRC driver, not because of the name of some rally games. And the fact that his little boy and two others died with him made it worth mentioning.

Then again, the golden rule still stands: if you don't have anything worth to post in a topic than DON'T POST, just for the sake of telling "I'm not interested in him, nor do I care about his death." That's just stupid.

I have to agree with everything Thechosen said. Except with me change eddie too Chris Benoit. You don't cry or be sad because they are just famous. You are sad they will never be around again. You aren't sad because they are famous. That is bogus. It is change.

Rest in piece Colin,Johnny and the 2 others who died. Rest in Peace.

Finally, a person with dignity. Thanks Alex, and I totally agree with ya.

Good grief...
If somebody you liked as a performer or whatever dies you say, "oh. Bummer."
It's something of a downer, but not something you get upset over.
If you knew the recently devivified be sad, if you liked his stuff be a little bummed.
I've always had the distinct impression from being around people expressing their sorrow about celebrity deaths in public that they're either posing or just mouthing what they think they ought to mouth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Playbahnosh @ Sep 19 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]311833[/snapback]</div>1st don't be an behind and devaluate my opinion on this matter. The topic is about celebrity deaths, I didn't post just to say that I don't care about his death, if you think that's all I wanted to say you should read my post again and again, maybe it'll get to your head then. ;)

the last two lines were not meant for you personally. It was a "if the cap fits..." thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sebatianos @ Sep 18 2007, 03:53 AM) [snapback]311543[/snapback]</div>I'll admit to being one of those who didn't recognize that name when I read it, but now that I've looked him up, I'm a bit sad that he has died. I saw some episodes of La Linea when I was a kid as part of a show called The Great Space Coaster, and I loved it. I even drew some very similar cartoons of my own, plagiarism being the most sincere form of flattery. So even though I didn't know Mr. Cavandoli's name until now, I don't think expressing a little sadness at his passing makes me a hypocrite or a poseur. It does show that I'm nostalgic for my childhood, and I certainly won't deny that here.

Sometimes, the death of a well known individual depresses me, but only in accord with their affect on me. I had come close to memorising the scripts of eps. 3-12 of the HGTTG radio series, so I was quite distraught to learn that Douglas Adams passed away at the relatively young age of 49.

As I watched Sesame Street way back when the episode numbers were only in the triple digits, I nearly ditched my highschool classes to see the episode where it was admitted to the viewers that Mr. Hooper the shopkeeper (really, the actor that played him) had died.

I was saddened by the passing of Jim Henson.

The voice that I most wanted to hear, as I grew up, belonged to Mel Blanc.

I lived in perpetual dread of meeting Bob Homme (The Friendly Giant), and discovering that he was only 5'4" [I have no idea how tall he really was]. Ernie Coombs, a puppeteer for Mr. Rogers, before becoming Mr. Dressup helped fill my childhood with delight. Fred Rogers was not someone I watched alot, but all three of these gentlemen, now deceased, presented the image of someone who would take delight in listening to a child and did not assume we only had a thirty second attention span.

I miss Graham Chapman, as he held a fascinating question and answer session that I managed to get a ticket for, and I saw facets that do not come through from the sketch comedy of Monty Python.

Sadly, most celebrities have not had anywhere near the effect on me as these people, so I don't miss them. I miss James Doohan, only because he could have had quite the career as a voice actor (he voiced all of the aliens in the brief Star Trek animated series [The Stasis Box is the best example of his abilities, from that series]).

The other thing I remember from the days after Princess Diana's death was a distraught cashier at a convenience store who was upset that coverage of her death prevented Mother Theresa's death from getting more than a passing mention, in the news.

Having lost the ability to hear nuances in music (without actually being tone deaf), I can enjoy listening to any tenor that can keep time with the music and move the pitch of his voice up or down as the song requires. I can tell that Pavarotti could sing, but I have to take other peoples word on it that he can sing well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rlbell @ Sep 22 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]312393[/snapback]</div>Luckily over here they did have a sense of what is and what isn't importaint. At the time of the death of mother Teresa all the mediastopped covering Princes Di's death (they picked up on it after about a week again though) and really gave elaborate stories on the life and work of mother Teresa. It was impresive what she achieved in her life.

I think, that your safety in car is your own thing. So it's your right to buckle on or not. In our country just recent came into force a law, which obliges you to always buckle on in your car or pay the fine. I agree, that people sometimes don't understand what is good and what is bad, but this is not that case.

I remember when I was still a little boy, there wasn't uch a law in Slovenia, but for over 20 years now there is such a law here.

OK, buckling up isn't really a problem (it's no bother to acctually do it), but it didn't help any yet. The mortality rates on Slovenian roads are really scary. You have better chances to survive as a tourist in Iraq for a year, then as a driver on Slovene roads (purely statistically). So the law didn't help any and people have been buckling up for over 20 years now.

You know, they're still putting muck on the tv about saint diana?
If I wasn't particularly impressed by her death at the time, I've actually become angry at the chumps that still care (I've graciously exempted friends and family from this list).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chumloofah @ Sep 22 2007, 12:51 PM) [snapback]312469[/snapback]</div>Saint Diana?

[callous pedant mode-- on]

Divorced fornicators are usually disqualified from beatification.

[callous pedant mode-- off]

Saints are supposed to have led exemplary lives, or at least since their conversion (Saint Olga of Pscov was a Lady Stalin, before becoming christian). While Diana may have had a last second conversion and that act of perfect contrition could have propelled her into Heaven, we would never know. Who are you going to pray to when you really need a miracle? Someone who lived similarily to Saint Francis of Assisi (Mother Theresa), or Princess Di? Me, I would rather pray to St. Genghis the belatedly apologetic than to a scandalous woman who is probably still caught up in Purgatory (we will not know the fate of anyone not proven to be a saint, before the final judgement, so I will hold out the hope that Diana will eventually make it into Heaven[If only because it makes it more likely that I will get there, too]).

I think that "saint" wasn't ment to be taken literaly. I guess it was used only because the comparison with mother Teresa (who was recomended to become a saint - didn't follow up on it if she did or did not been given the title).