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[Borodin]

Originally posted by Shunk Eat Enemy@Jul 16 2005, 02:57 AM
i hope the more religous types take the test and then post there results :whistle:

LOL! I'm pretty religious, but not by any biblically accepted standards. Besides, does the bible provide very good examples to follow? Mark Twain once detailed some of the practices followed in the bible, including slavery, the killing of children by pious prophets (hey, those kids were taunting him!), the visitation of disease, starvation and death on innocents, etc. And before somebody says "this is the old testament, it no longer applies," let's remember that Christianity accepts the old testament in full as part of the bible.

In any case, my witchcraft sensibilities aren't exactly appropriate for a trip down memory lane with Dante. :angel:

[a1s]

I'm a heretic! (well actualy, bein an atheist, I knew that) phear me!

BTW Borodin, is being a witch anything like they describe it (you know, the broom riding, man-into-frog-turning stereotype)? and is it hard to join?

[efthimios]

First Level of Hell - Limbo

Charon ushers you across the river Acheron, and you find yourself upon the brink of grief's abysmal valley. You are in Limbo, a place of sorrow without torment. You encounter a seven-walled castle, and within those walls you find rolling fresh meadows illuminated by the light of reason, whereabout many shades dwell. These are the virtuous pagans, the great philosophers and authors, unbaptised children, and others unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven. You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, Socrates, and Aristotle. There is no punishment here, and the atmosphere is peaceful, yet sad.

Well, for someone who is not a christian, not bad. Actualy it sounds like fun. LOL

[Borodin]

Originally posted by a1s@Jul 16 2005, 04:05 AM
I'm a heretic! (well actualy, bein an atheist, I knew that) phear me!

BTW Borodin, is being a witch anything like they describe it (you know, the broom riding, man-into-frog-turning stereotype)? and is it hard to join?

Nah. For one thing, I'm a guy, and I've never ridden a broom in my life! The Craft (as it used to be called) is simply a series of practices used individually by people who "travel" inside themselves to alternate levels of reality (like shamans in some cultures). More recently, witches also appropriated the group ritual techniques of ceremonial magical organizations; so now it's as much a group thing, as a private, individual one. But I suspect the broom riding stuff came from using a few rather dangerous drugs with strong hallucenogenic affects. The thing is, any good witch should be able to train to the point that they can "go to the other side of the hedge" without drugs, simply by using breathing and visualization techniques.

As for joining--there are so many different branches of witchcraft these days, that it really helps to first discover which one you find amenable. Then, you have to see what's going on in your area--because we're all about personal learning and atendance, not long distance stuff. There are some Craft correspondence courses, but frankly I don't give them much credit. An initiatory practice like the Craft can't be learned through emails or books. Just my take on it.

To find out more, you might check www.witchvox. I can also post some other links when I get home Sunday night, if you're interested. Or maybe we should start a new thread.

[a1s]

Originally posted by Borodin@Jul 16 2005, 04:34 AM
I can also post some other links when I get home Sunday night, if you're interested. Or maybe we should start a new thread.

yes, that would probably be better.

[Xikarita]

Hey everybody...been a long time!
I'm going to talk about the inicial subject in this thread, if that's ok...
As a Roman Catholic by formation, I do believe in Heaven. I didn't always think like this, I rejected religion during my early teens, only to return to it just a few years ago.
Back to the subject...
To me, Heaven is a place where you are united with God. And Hell is a cold, lonely place, devoid of God's presence...simple as that.
God gives everyone the chance to follow their path; the fact that you have to endure suffering during your life is part of God's design, I believe (up to some extent). After all, if He showed Himself to everyone, we would have no choice but to believe! Where's the merit in that? So He rewards only those that follow His path, of their own choice.
The issue of spirituality in the Western World....
Philosophical systems in the Western world have evolved to make Man the center of their studies, and more than that, the unit that measures everything. That is to say, we tend to think of things in our own terms; that's why many people imagine God as a long-bearded old man- a human figure.
The problem is that this system has long began to collapse. We use our ''exact'' sciences as an answer to everything, but we forget that we are only imperfect and limited creatures, and therefore our sciences can only be imperfect and limited as well. We need God in our lives, but because our sciences haven't been able to reach a ''solid''(?) conclusion on this, we eliminated Him and chose to focus our energies in obtaining material goods, and forms of entertainment that allow us to forget, even for brief moments, how bleak our existence is without God...
Sorry if I strayed from the main point.

[Quintopotere]

Originally posted by Borodin+Jul 16 2005, 12:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Borodin @ Jul 16 2005, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Quintopotere@Jul 14 2005, 06:47 PM
Love is perfection! In heaven we will able to love perfectly like God!

Being "like" perfection is not perfection, and love, in and by itself, is also not perfection. A deity that is the entire universe and all that is in it is not merely love. To be in a place that is static without the possibility of growth, and without being perfect within oneself, is again, I feel, no heaven at all. [/b][/quote]
But i think that Love IS the entire universe, maybe you have to be more "flexible" to understand what i trying to explain, God doesn't reason like a man...
Growing need the existance of time, to have different states of the reality, but time is only a human dimension and God has not "time", you should perceive by intuition how cuold be heaven and you cannot think it in human terms.
Heaven isn't "static" like "time pass and it's all the same forever", but there is no time... and we simply can't "think" it.

@ Xikarita: I agree mostly with you, but i don't think that "the fact that you have to endure suffering during your life is part of God's design": suffering is part of human design!
We could live in peace and love... but we don't want!

[Borodin]

But i think that Love IS the entire universe, maybe you have to be more "flexible" to understand what i trying to explain, God doesn't reason like a man...
Growing need the existance of time, to have different states of the reality, but time is only a human dimension and God has not "time", you should perceive by intuition how cuold be heaven and you cannot think it in human terms.

Actually, I regularly engage in meditations and rituals that require me not to think in human terms; and I've never believed that time was anything other than subjective. I'm pretty intuitive, and I don't think I need lessons on this, thanks. In fact, I'm far more intuitive than logical, but that's never yet stopped me.

If you are suggesting that outside of time, all being is perfect, and we are part of that and will eventually realize this--then we have no differences of opinion. Still, we are all within time as that is said; and getting from here to there isn't as simple as sitting in a lotus position and gazing inward for an hour each day, in my opinion.

Nor is your statement in accord wih Judeo-Christian theology, which believes that the deity is transcendant--above all things--rather than immanent--moving through and part of all things. The monotheism of Judism and Christianity believes that humanity will always be separate from its god, and will receive as its final reward the ability to worship that deity from an extremely "close" perspective.

This, I cannot accept. In the end, I think we will achieve the state you mention, and become "perfect," but in the meantime, the deity moves through us, animates us continuously, urges us to change and develop. For this, conflict is a strong element of movement; conflict is part of our current nature. It is how we use it that determines where we are, who we are. So is love. So, basically, are we.

[Quintopotere]

I'm sorry if i seemed quite "tough" in my statement, but it's caused by my english limits and a seriuos discussion is too much for my basic english...

Still, we are all within time as that is said; and getting from here to there isn't as simple as sitting in a lotus position and gazing inward for an hour each day, in my opinion

I don't understand why you said that :blink:

The monotheism of Judism and Christianity believes that humanity will always be separate from its god, and will receive as its final reward the ability to worship that deity from an extremely "close" perspective.

I can tell you that this is not true (i'm christian and i know what i belive): we are definitely not separate from God! "If two of more are praying me togheter i'll be within them" Christ said (well this should be the english translation, if i'm right), so i've to trust that God is here, with us, and sometimes we can feel Him...

the deity moves through us, animates us continuously, urges us to change and develop. For this, conflict is a strong element of movement; conflict is part of our current nature

I don't agree at this point: I think that is not so important change or stay equal...
Think about a poor african boy that can't change and improve himself because of where he was born: he can only go on with his ignorance and static traditions, so will he be destinated to fail his life? In that case this shold be really a stupid world...

OK, i'm going so, :bye:

[efthimios]

Originally posted by Quintopotere@Jul 16 2005, 06:55 PM

Think about a poor african boy that can't change and improve himself because of where he was born: he can only go on with his ignorance and static traditions, so will he be destinated to fail his life? In that case this shold be really a stupid world...

arty:

Exactly! It is!