I was having a nice, pacific conversation in MSN about this, I thought I could have a few more opinions. What I typically see is, catholics ignoring the parts of their holy book which they don't like, and create their own version of heaven, according to what they want to believe. Since each mind will probably imagine different utopias, my guess is there are either a billion heavens or a billion disappointments.

Please control the insults and badmouths, I had more cursing in 2 hours than Southpark can possibly introduce in 1 week series.

So, sctrictly to catholics: What's heaven?

Just to be 100% certain (I am slow!), people who are not Catholics or even Christians are not "allowed" to talk about the "afterlife", right? (I don't mind one way or another)

as an atheist to author (belivers should flame me by PM only):
heaven is an illusion. when you come home ant there is hot water and good friends, that's heaven. when you die, it's death and worms eat you. that doesn't nean you should do bad things, that would not benfit the society, and is thus counterproductive ...

/me flames a1s

Heaven is the place you go to after death if you aren't bad.

If you'll check my signature you'll know what i think: afther death we will have what we chose in life!
If you chose love, God will fill you with His perfect loving us!
If you chose egoism, you'll be with your lonelyness!

Anyway, since i'm not God i can't tell you for sure HOW that will be... and Bible is metaphoric, not a description, so we could only understand the sense...

that's odd, I always thought life is what you make of it (read: what you choose for), not death

I don't know about afterlife. I think there has to be some way between evolution and religion that makes life seem more logical (for instance: I always wonder why cells do mutate. Could that randomness be something God-like, or just another thing we can't yet explain by science?), and some parts of about almost any religion can at least be helpful to make life less weary. But afterlife?

I have a hard time believing there's anything like a heaven or hell, but somehow reincarnation seems really appealing. But that has more to do with my personal wish to be able to start all over again, it's not really realistic. There's just to much human thought in such visions to be really true. I sometimes wish I could believe it though, just to make life seem less random.

According to our media the suicide pilots (back in 9/11 incident) believed that heaven was a place where they would get 200 virgins, good food and drinks...

... I have a feeling that's what most suicide bombers (at least the heavily religious ones) believe (or something similar).

Whee! Unsolicited religion bashing!

Wee! Solicited member warning!

that's odd, I always thought life is what you make of it (read: what you choose for), not death
[/b][/quote]
Uhmm... i think we are speaking of the same thingns with different words... or maybe i didn't understand you...

Anyway God IS the life, so if you choose Him, you choose for life even in your lifetime and you'll really live... :angel: Afterlife it's just a more intense (and different in some aspects) continuation of the life...

Uffh, sometime it's too difficult for me find the right english words...

thats probably why those stoopid bombers did what they did. For there vision of heaven. crazy little b@st@rds! :evil:

You know, not to stop this Noel Coward-type wit, but the person who started this thread wanted to know what "heaven" meant to Roman Catholics. I don't think anybody has bothered to answer, yet.

Sorry that I can't, but I'm a witch. Yes, seriously: initiated 28 years ago, but one long before that in substance. Come on, now: there has to be at least one Roman Catholic, whether lapsed or active, who can reply to this.

BTW, I forgot to ask, what is efthimioses oppinion on the topic? what does he make of the whole heaven thing?

Spoken like a true Ur-Quan drone. No, seriously. Im with yah on that one. Im athiest too and my beleifs are the same as his

*hisssss!!!*
*makes fingers into a cross at Borodin*
LOL
just jokin...

As I appear to be the resident Roman Catholic in Abandonia, I shall express what I understand of heaven.

Some time ago, a theology teacher described to me heaven as it was imagined by the Church. As a soul is described as the self once unshackled from flesh, the soul of a human is granted perfection in everything. Human souls permitted to enter heaven are perfect, and have superhuman abilities. There is no need for anything because the human heart has the one thing it truly desires, which is to be one with God. Food and water are not needed because there is no body.

I think that Humans are probably permitted to return to Eden (if it exists, since the Bible is more metaphorical than factual anyway).

I attended a lecture by a priest not too long ago about Mary, and he was posed a question about why Catholics regard the Bible differently from other Christians. The priest said that Christianity could be corrupted much more easily if everything was based on the written word of the Bible, since corrupt people in history have been known to alter the Bible for their own gain (to the Wiccan: this is one of the main reasons why witches were persecuted four hundred years ago. I believe it was the King James' Version that was altered to deem witches evil). Also, the Bible would not have answers for contemporary issues (gay sex or abortion, for example). Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church bases its faith on three things: Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church's pope, cardinals, and bishops, which is based on Divine Inspiration and study), Tradition, and the Bible. The priest also said that the Bible should come from the Church, whereas other Christian sects worked in the opposite way.

I figured as much. ;) Besides, I've been on the receiving end of far worse, I assure you.

Since a1s asked me, and hopefuly none else minds, I will give my own beliefs on the matter.
I am a "believer" (I don't like this word but easier for everyone) of the Olympian Gods. Yes that means Zeus, Athena etc.
I believe, according the my beliefs, what the others of same beliefs do. When anyone dies goes to the underworld (with the whole trip explained for millenia now and don't want to bother anyone by repeating it) where if he/she manages to cross the river Styx I think it is called in english, you stay there for ever. It doesn't matter how you lived your life and what you did. We all go to the same place. Where it is not similar to heaven, or hell or the limbo (sp?) that some other people believe in. It is a "neutral" existance without much anything. There are some (noobs who started it that about the 5th century BCE) that started believing in a better place for people who were nice, where they didn't know they were dead and all. That, however, is not the original "idea" and just a few from ancient Athens mainly believed in it. Still since it is part of it I thought about mentioning it too.

That's what i am!

Abuot the resurrection, in the New Testament, Christ resurrected not only like a "soul", but with His body... so maybe in the afterlife we will have our body or something similar!

yo can do that yourself (press the delete button, and save admins the work).
and you can only lock threads, not delete them (well it is possible, but not with standard means- Data can do it, as can Kosta, as for the others... I don't think so)

Maybe those that spend their lives trying to learn that, myself I have no desire of being one with any god. Besides, a "soul" can be understood in so many ways, and I believe in the scientific way better than the religious one. Therefore, that "heaven" sounds way too boring to me.

So, according with what i said, you will have what you want: you will not be one with God! That's why God is so just!

I think that afterlife isn't like "waiting in an hospital room", with nothing to do and all smiling togheter, or you know, something like that...

Probably there will not be the time passing, so will be impossible to get bored... :bleh:

is there a scientific defenition of a soul? I've never heard it before. could you tell us?

Maybe those that spend their lives trying to learn that, myself I have no desire of being one with any god. Besides, a "soul" can be understood in so many ways, and I believe in the scientific way better than the religious one. Therefore, that "heaven" sounds way too boring to me. [/b][/quote]
The concept of continuing on literally forever in my current state of separated self sounds like a hell, not like a heaven. And yet Christians believe this; even desire it. I find that, with due respect, amazing.

well maybe heaven is like neverending sleep. you don't feel that you're doing nothing. they do promise it to be *very* peceful. ah, a neverending nap in the clouds...

Who doesn't like naps? :angel: :yawn: :zzzzz:

is there a scientific defenition of a soul? I've never heard it before. could you tell us?[/b][/quote]
Aristotle defended that the soul and the body are inseparable. The soul would be something resembling a personality, containing our desires, principles and emotions. I personally agree with Piaget, those things can be/are influenced by one's surroundings. Looking back in my past, I can find at least one reason for anything I have interest in, wouldn't you agree?


Another issue that puzzles me: It's written in the Bible that if you live a good life, your gift would be to stay on Earth. So heaven is the place where the evil/not so good souls go when their bodies die (If you believe in ethereality of the soul). I haven't been in a mass for years, but I think the priest kinda teaches the opposite?

Kill, desire, envy, enrage, be lazy, eat more than you can possibly imagine and ultimately commit suicide, and you'll have heaven's doors wide open for you. :sneaky:

©1977 Talking Heads

:twisted: :angel: :whistle:

Don't Know what heaven is. But one thing i know : it's a stairway that leads to it, when it's a highway that leads to hell. :twisted:

well maybe heaven is like neverending sleep. you don't feel that you're doing nothing. they do promise it to be *very* peceful. ah, a neverending nap in the clouds... [/b][/quote]
And would you want in your current state of existence to have unending anything? I wouldn't. Sleeping forever...? Why do that? I would want to change, to grow. To be caught inside myself as I am isn't any place I'd want to go. :)

Uhmm, growing forever? It sounds me like going forever to nowhere...
If you have no destination to reach, why grow?

Uhmm, growing forever? It sounds me like going forever to nowhere...
If you have no destination to reach, why grow? [/b][/quote]
Because I want to understand myself, and the universe, more. As I go through life, I change. I develop new reactions, I learn new things, my horizons always grow larger. That's my nature. It's the way I am. To be stuck in stasis forever would be like...being forced to watch one movie, over and over, always the same, all the way through. That would be hell.

this is just growing into a huge spam fest so either get on topic or let this thread be locked

I'll be the judge of that thank you - Havell

here's a special heaven jsut for you:
during the day- you get to read any book ever written by any author, or go anyplace in the universe.
at night- we earse your memories of the day but you don't know about it.
this way you get to grow as far as you want (the day in heaven lasts as long as you're not tired), and never run out of secrets to discover! :w00t:

<!--QuoteBegin-punch666
let this thread be locked [/quote]
never! :tai: :wall:

No thanks. Since I don't believe in a heaven anyway, I'll pass. ;)

Maybe those that spend their lives trying to learn that, myself I have no desire of being one with any god. Besides, a "soul" can be understood in so many ways, and I believe in the scientific way better than the religious one. Therefore, that "heaven" sounds way too boring to me. [/b][/quote]
According to Catholicism, on Earth we receive only a portion of God's love. However, when we die, hell is thought to be not a place where you are burned or whatever, but a place where God does not send you ANY love at all. Without God's love, there is agony and despair.

Speaking of science, it is quite possible for science and religion to coexist. For example, I accept Darwin's ideas of evolutionism, but consider that the first animals were created by God and evolved from there to suit their environments. I also consider things like the tsunami in December 2004 to be not God's responsibility, as God created science, and when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden to live in this world of pain and suffering, God doesn't hold science back. Humans are expected to fend for themselves, and no amount of prayer to God is going to send humanitarian aid or fix anything.



Well, according to teaching, no one is perfect. Heaven is supposed to be a place where you are completely perfect, so things might be different for you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lethe
Another issue that puzzles me: It's written in the Bible that if you live a good life, your gift would be to stay on Earth. So heaven is the place where the evil/not so good souls go when their bodies die (If you believe in ethereality of the soul). I haven't been in a mass for years, but I think the priest kinda teaches the opposite?[/quote]

As I said before, you really can't read the Bible and take everything as you see it. The Bible is more metaphorical than factual; if you base your beliefs solely around every word in the Bible, then you're probably pretty-closed minded.

very nice imitation of my alter ego to bad it was spam

I am Pagan :)

The problem is, who are you to divide the bible into right and wrong, according to your own perceptions? As I said in my first post, each person believes in what they want to believe.


Adam and Eve are not coexistable with Darwin's theory.

why not? they would fit perfectly where "the missing link" supposedly is. there are some illogical parts to evolution, and they were addressed in the great flood thread (I intentionaly plced no link here, because you shouldn't revive that thread).
let's get back to heavens.

In other words, you go to some heaven, and become god? Because if you don't become god, you can hardly become perfect. To be eternally separate, is not perfection.

Love is perfection! In heaven we will able to love perfectly like God!

Perfection is not something related to culture or school grades... even a dumb could live loving and go to heaven...

@ Lethe: we MUST believe in what we want to believe! And it's not important is i don't remember a Mxwell's equation or what a profet said in a specific occasion: the important it's just understand the main plot...

Triton, you said

as God created science, and when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden to live in this world of pain and suffering, God doesn't hold science back. Humans are expected to fend for themselves, and no amount of prayer to God is going to send humanitarian aid or fix anything.



Am I wrong to remember that the whole Jesus crucifiction and resurection was part of erasing the first sin?...

and yes I used to be christian.

Who are you to take the Bible word for word? If everyone was a Christian who took the Bible word for word, we wouldn't have women's rights. I think it was in one of the letters of St Paul to the Corinthians that Paul wrote that women should be submissive to their husbands. Granted, Paul wrote this quite a few years after Jesus was crucified when the Church was being founded and things were quite disorganized (not to mention his rivalry with St Peter), but there were no revisions. He does contradict himself in another place (I can't remember where) by naming a woman before a man, which was quite unspeakable in the Roman world.

<!--QuoteBegin-efthimios
Am I wrong to remember that the whole Jesus crucifiction and resurection was part of erasing the first sin?...[/quote]

If you created the universe, wouldn't you be able to bend your own rules in order to give your creation a second chance?

Wow this is a religious debate..nothing like intended by the original poster (I think at least)

Anyways..I'm not catholic but I will give my views on heaven as a Baptist. Obvoiusly with christianity, we believe in Heaven and Hell, being places where God, and Satan reside. Heaven is the place that God has created for his people..and when death occurs....the body remains on Earth but the spirit of the body is taken to heaven (if "saved" of course) where he lives among the angels and all others who passed before, and among God. It's a place of peace. What actually occurs there I guess is anyones speculation or guess...

Anyways..that's just my beliefs on it.

well since thats been answer can i ask what is hell exactly iv'e seen a good informing show on tv talking about hell i haven't read dante's inferno yet but i'd like to know what is hell or what do you interupt it into, dante's inferno describes it as a cold frozen place divided into 7 layers thats all i know

Triton,
no you wouldn't bend the rules because according to the christian beliefs the god does not make mistakes. He doesn't have to bend the rules, he knows everythings that ever was is and will be no matter what.

Well according to Christianity..hell is basically the opposite of Heaven. Hell is the place where Satan rules and dwells...of course the typical thoughts of it are that it is full of fire and flame..and hot. I dunno exactly how it is in hell..and I suppose noone does..but it is supposed to be a place of despair and endless um..torment I guess you could say.

I thought it was just a place where you could never be with God. The rest of the stuff was just added in to make it even worse .

Don't forget that Hell is supposed to be as much a punishment for Satan as the rest of the people there. According to Dante's Inferno, the higher levels have punishments like being whipped and wallowing in muck while the very lowest levels, are full of ice and the lower down you are the more encased in ice you are, the penultimate level's denizens are completed encased in ice while the unlucky people in the lowest level are held inside Lucifer's mouth. He being completely encased in ice.

At least they are not forced to watch re runs of Jerry or something.

In fact God doesn't make mistakes! But we are able to do mistakes, cause He created us free!
Matter/energy is perfect, we can't destroy or create it, like physics say... the evil stays only in our "hearts" like the good...

About hell, it's just staying far from God, an ethernity without The Love... I thnk that's worse than flames... and Dante's book doesn't speak about hell: it's an allegoric (metaphoric) description, that speak mainly about italian situation in his times and other things like this!

I didn't read all the topic, just to say my opinion...

Heaven is a place with no responsbilities or something close to it...

's a halfpipe, innit?

Damn, now that irritating song is stuck in my head. Grrr.

All righty then.... let me see if i can contribute with something usefull for this topic.

first, let me say i was raised as a catholic, and that, as obvious has great influence in my opinion for this matter. however, as long as i' ve been growing and my mind has been becaming "self-aware" step by step, some of my ideas have been adapted so they fit all togheter with my learnings. I belive God (or whatever you want to call Him) is the Universe, from every single grain of dust to the biggest star somewhere out there. we all are a part of it. respecting Him means respecting each others and all living things. loving Him is also loving each others and all living things. our Soul is what makes us being alive, without it, our body is dead; it is some kind of energy or life-force. and when the body dies, that energy will have to go somewhere (so laws of physics can be applied here too) and there's where Heaven and Hell appears.

I belive both of them are everywhere, in the same Universe as we are, but in diferent dimensions, where we can't reach them or even see them. I also belive that according to our actions while we were alive, there will be more or less freedom for the our soul; so the good souls will have more chances to interact with our dimension, and some of these will probably choose to re-incarnate as for most of them will be just like "lurkers" who just watch what's happening, barely interfere.

after reading this before i post it, i just reallized that most of you will call me "moron" for thinking like this, but, oh well, i can live with that :bleh:

Appart from this line:
I could almost agree with you. Not entirely, but in a general direction.

You're certainly no "moron" to me.

sounds a bit like reincarnation to me :whistle:

Being "like" perfection is not perfection, and love, in and by itself, is also not perfection. A deity that is the entire universe and all that is in it is not merely love. To be in a place that is static without the possibility of growth, and without being perfect within oneself, is again, I feel, no heaven at all.

God doesn't make mistakes, he just changes his mind.

sounds a bit like reincarnation to me :whistle:[/b][/quote]
Yes, but that's against what is mostly believed (good life --> heaven, yar yar)


:roflol: LOL :roflol:

I remeber reading an article about early chrisianity , guess what? they believed in a sort of reincarnation. I'll try to find that article.

i know. my mum told me about it. (she was well into bible studys as a young 'un) would be cool if you find the article though and post a link man!
why did they stop? reincarnation is a much better impetus towards goodness than heaven - hell
think about it, if you are baptised you can sin all you want but find christ towards the end and you have salvation. so hey kill some babies, as long as you accept christ as your savior and repent of your baby killing ways you gonna go to heaven.
however under reincarnation kill some babys and you could possibly spend hundreds (or more) years being reincarnated as a battery hen.

Atheists: You can't prove that God exists

Christians: You can't prove that God doesn't exist


And so the argument goes on.........

@Borodin: sounds like a permanent state of stasis, or: Hell

to me arguing is like never changing or growing but just watching the same movie over and over again.

When everybody argues about the horrors of religion and nonreligion, soon it gets impossible not to go back on your words.

why would they do that?
why would they do that?

according to this wonderfull test
(assuming dantes the man for this whole heaven/hell shizznit)
im destined for the seventh layer of hell when i die. yay me!
oh and anyone who wants to read dantes the devine comedy (and its well worth it, is powerfull stuff) go here

wow im going to the 5th level of hell good for me

OMG thats your name i hope you ansered it correctly :bleh:

well i was completly honest, hence why im destined for the 7th layer. (only just advoided the ninth by a hairs breadth) ahh well lucky i already have a large collection of wolly hats.
you swine though! while im being used as nesting material your languishing up on the fith. unfair.

what can i say i like to live ''large'' :w00t:

"Could you picture yourself assassinating someone or ordering an assassination on someone if it meant that you would become very rich and powerful?"

None of the people I think about killing would make me rich or powerful, but I'd surely be very happy. :angel:



"Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis

You approach Satan's wretched city where you behold a wide plain surrounded by iron walls. Before you are fields full of distress and torment terrible. Burning tombs are littered about the landscape. Inside these flaming sepulchers suffer the heretics, failing to believe in God and the afterlife, who make themselves audible by doleful sighs. You will join the wicked that lie here, and will be offered no respite. The three infernal Furies stained with blood, with limbs of women and hair of serpents, dwell in this circle of Hell."


I like it. Sounds like my house in Halloween.

i hope the more religous types take the test and then post there results :whistle:

I'm Baptist (Christian), and I got Purgatory.

LOL! I'm pretty religious, but not by any biblically accepted standards. Besides, does the bible provide very good examples to follow? Mark Twain once detailed some of the practices followed in the bible, including slavery, the killing of children by pious prophets (hey, those kids were taunting him!), the visitation of disease, starvation and death on innocents, etc. And before somebody says "this is the old testament, it no longer applies," let's remember that Christianity accepts the old testament in full as part of the bible.

In any case, my witchcraft sensibilities aren't exactly appropriate for a trip down memory lane with Dante. :angel:

I'm a heretic! (well actualy, bein an atheist, I knew that) phear me!

BTW Borodin, is being a witch anything like they describe it (you know, the broom riding, man-into-frog-turning stereotype)? and is it hard to join?

First Level of Hell - Limbo

Charon ushers you across the river Acheron, and you find yourself upon the brink of grief's abysmal valley. You are in Limbo, a place of sorrow without torment. You encounter a seven-walled castle, and within those walls you find rolling fresh meadows illuminated by the light of reason, whereabout many shades dwell. These are the virtuous pagans, the great philosophers and authors, unbaptised children, and others unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven. You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, Socrates, and Aristotle. There is no punishment here, and the atmosphere is peaceful, yet sad.

Well, for someone who is not a christian, not bad. Actualy it sounds like fun. LOL

Nah. :D For one thing, I'm a guy, and I've never ridden a broom in my life! The Craft (as it used to be called) is simply a series of practices used individually by people who "travel" inside themselves to alternate levels of reality (like shamans in some cultures). More recently, witches also appropriated the group ritual techniques of ceremonial magical organizations; so now it's as much a group thing, as a private, individual one. But I suspect the broom riding stuff came from using a few rather dangerous drugs with strong hallucenogenic affects. The thing is, any good witch should be able to train to the point that they can "go to the other side of the hedge" without drugs, simply by using breathing and visualization techniques.

As for joining--there are so many different branches of witchcraft these days, that it really helps to first discover which one you find amenable. Then, you have to see what's going on in your area--because we're all about personal learning and atendance, not long distance stuff. There are some Craft correspondence courses, but frankly I don't give them much credit. An initiatory practice like the Craft can't be learned through emails or books. Just my take on it.

To find out more, you might check www.witchvox. I can also post some other links when I get home Sunday night, if you're interested. Or maybe we should start a new thread.

yes, that would probably be better.

Hey everybody...been a long time!
I'm going to talk about the inicial subject in this thread, if that's ok...
As a Roman Catholic by formation, I do believe in Heaven. I didn't always think like this, I rejected religion during my early teens, only to return to it just a few years ago.
Back to the subject...
To me, Heaven is a place where you are united with God. And Hell is a cold, lonely place, devoid of God's presence...simple as that.
God gives everyone the chance to follow their path; the fact that you have to endure suffering during your life is part of God's design, I believe (up to some extent). After all, if He showed Himself to everyone, we would have no choice but to believe! Where's the merit in that? So He rewards only those that follow His path, of their own choice.
The issue of spirituality in the Western World....
Philosophical systems in the Western world have evolved to make Man the center of their studies, and more than that, the unit that measures everything. That is to say, we tend to think of things in our own terms; that's why many people imagine God as a long-bearded old man- a human figure.
The problem is that this system has long began to collapse. We use our ''exact'' sciences as an answer to everything, but we forget that we are only imperfect and limited creatures, and therefore our sciences can only be imperfect and limited as well. We need God in our lives, but because our sciences haven't been able to reach a ''solid''(?) conclusion on this, we eliminated Him and chose to focus our energies in obtaining material goods, and forms of entertainment that allow us to forget, even for brief moments, how bleak our existence is without God...
Sorry if I strayed from the main point.

Being "like" perfection is not perfection, and love, in and by itself, is also not perfection. A deity that is the entire universe and all that is in it is not merely love. To be in a place that is static without the possibility of growth, and without being perfect within oneself, is again, I feel, no heaven at all. [/b][/quote]
But i think that Love IS the entire universe, maybe you have to be more "flexible" to understand what i trying to explain, God doesn't reason like a man...
Growing need the existance of time, to have different states of the reality, but time is only a human dimension and God has not "time", you should perceive by intuition how cuold be heaven and you cannot think it in human terms.
Heaven isn't "static" like "time pass and it's all the same forever", but there is no time... and we simply can't "think" it.

@ Xikarita: I agree mostly with you, but i don't think that "the fact that you have to endure suffering during your life is part of God's design": suffering is part of human design!
We could live in peace and love... but we don't want!

But i think that Love IS the entire universe, maybe you have to be more "flexible" to understand what i trying to explain, God doesn't reason like a man...
Growing need the existance of time, to have different states of the reality, but time is only a human dimension and God has not "time", you should perceive by intuition how cuold be heaven and you cannot think it in human terms.

Actually, I regularly engage in meditations and rituals that require me not to think in human terms; and I've never believed that time was anything other than subjective. I'm pretty intuitive, and I don't think I need lessons on this, thanks. ;) In fact, I'm far more intuitive than logical, but that's never yet stopped me.

If you are suggesting that outside of time, all being is perfect, and we are part of that and will eventually realize this--then we have no differences of opinion. Still, we are all within time as that is said; and getting from here to there isn't as simple as sitting in a lotus position and gazing inward for an hour each day, in my opinion.

Nor is your statement in accord wih Judeo-Christian theology, which believes that the deity is transcendant--above all things--rather than immanent--moving through and part of all things. The monotheism of Judism and Christianity believes that humanity will always be separate from its god, and will receive as its final reward the ability to worship that deity from an extremely "close" perspective.

This, I cannot accept. In the end, I think we will achieve the state you mention, and become "perfect," but in the meantime, the deity moves through us, animates us continuously, urges us to change and develop. For this, conflict is a strong element of movement; conflict is part of our current nature. It is how we use it that determines where we are, who we are. So is love. So, basically, are we.

I'm sorry if i seemed quite "tough" in my statement, but it's caused by my english limits and a seriuos discussion is too much for my basic english...
I don't understand why you said that :blink:
I can tell you that this is not true (i'm christian and i know what i belive): we are definitely not separate from God! "If two of more are praying me togheter i'll be within them" Christ said (well this should be the english translation, if i'm right), so i've to trust that God is here, with us, and sometimes we can feel Him...
I don't agree at this point: I think that is not so important change or stay equal...
Think about a poor african boy that can't change and improve himself because of where he was born: he can only go on with his ignorance and static traditions, so will he be destinated to fail his life? In that case this shold be really a stupid world...

OK, i'm going :ot: so, :bye:

:band: :guitar: :party:

Exactly! It is! :D

I'm sorry if i seemed quite "tough" in my statement, but it's caused by my english limits and a seriuos discussion is too much for my basic english...

Not to worry. :)

I can tell you that this is not true (i'm christian and i know what i belive): we are definitely not separate from God! "If two of more are praying me togheter i'll be within them" Christ said (well this should be the english translation, if i'm right), so i've to trust that God is here, with us, and sometimes we can feel Him...

Different kind of thing. I'm discussing becoming literally one with one's deity; you're discussing having the deity move through you. Judeo-Christian monotheism admits that one's deity moves through one, but you never become one with your deity. In the Judeo-Christian heaven, you "approach the throne of god," but you never actually become one with that which sits upon the throne.

Think about a poor african boy that can't change and improve himself because of where he was born: he can only go on with his ignorance and static traditions, so will he be destinated to fail his life?

But who says he must go on in ignorance? What of the incredible richness of his natural culture? The complexities of his human or social culture? The spiritual culture of the shamans? The ability to transcend oneself is inherent in our natures; and I think our early teachers have to stop us from always being interested in learning, in growing--for otherwise, we would not so easily fit within the little world our leaders would like us to occupy.

I don't know if this is what you want but this is my opinion on all this. What I believe is that life has a cycle. In simpler words there is rebirth. When you die you born again but let's say you were a human in this life and did many bad things(sins) you would be reborn as an animal,disabled etc(depends on how bad your sins were(exampler murder). You always have to repay for your sins if you did soemthing bad in this life you would get it back this life or your next life. Let's say you were a good person in this life then in your next birth you would be rich and would have luxury etc(depends how good your good things are for example donating lot of money to poor childern). The only way you can stop this cycle is if you are superior(not meaning having powers like superman) in mind. If you can understand that jealousy, stealing,murdering,been greedy would lead no where and having life over and over leads no where at all. If your mind is in this level you are considered as enlightened. Meditation is the key. Let's say you are enlightened and then died then you would never been born again and would live in peace(this doesn't include goingto heaven and all those things that are in fairy tales) it is like somewhat a1s explained. It is like peaceful sleep and you would never wake up again. Ok now that's what I believe and remeber I'm a normal person and been enlightened is by NO MEANS easy.

But, since you would have no memories and no knowledge of that previous life, how would you be responsible for that? Why pay for something you do not know you have done?

Ok why are there poor people and rich people in this world. So if they is no rebirth and we only have one life why do some people in this world are happy and some people are sad why are some people disabled. How come everyone doesn't born as equal.It depends what you did in your previous life good or bad. No one is going come and tell you you did that and that in your previous life if you did something bad or good in your previous life you would get it some point of your life cycle.

I guess you don't believe in some luck...
You're saying that if what you believe isn't true, the world would be fair.

EDIT: We should remain on topic (it is about heaven and hell after all). Sorry for this post.

Ok why are there poor people and rich people in this world. So if they is no rebirth and we only have one life why do some people in this world are happy and some people are sad why are some people disabled. How come everyone doesn't born as equal.It depends what you did in your previous life good or bad. No one is going come and tell you you did that and that in your previous life if you did something bad or good in your previous life you would get it some point of your life cycle. [/b][/quote]
Why isn't everyone born equal? I guess you mean like having money, well build body, clever etc? Because if everyone was we would all be robots from an assembly line. Some people get rich by thinking and doing something others haven't before them, others because their forefathers did, others because they steal, others because they exploit other humans, others because they win the money in lotter, others because they use their brain and are not afraid to experiment, with some luck, presto! money!

As for physicaly different, you might want to check some biology as a first step, then genes etc.

I seriously do not like the idea of anyone being rich because they deserve it according to what they (supposedetly sp?) did in their previous life. It sure sounds like something it could be used to suppress the people not wanting more than they have because "they deserve" what they have according to what they did in their previous life. This sounds like pure expoitational ideas from some who want the people to shut up and not question their authority.

actually within the boundries of reincarnation and karma it doesnt quite work like that. good karma from a previos life could actually lead you to lead the life of a contented peasent farmer with a good wife and loving children. all rebirths are a part of the individual souls reach for eventual enlightenment. good karma could lead you to be born to rich parents
but then if you were to generate good karma from that life it could actually be harder, due to the fact that it easier for the rich to get Extreme gambling, alcahol, drug issues, ect from earlier in there life. so being born rich can hamper your karma. then again within that life you also have the chance to be a philanthropist. a life as a rich person with abusive parents would be a lot worst than that of a poor person from a loving family.
karma means there is no escape from your actions even in death. but you can tip the blance if you are diligent. there is no *redemption* with karma.
i have heard a lot of people over the years spout some proper b's about karma.

1: "disabled people had bad karma in a previos life"
wrong! a person who is born disabled has a greater set of challanges ahead of them, especially in a third world country. the good karma they are going to generate for that lifetime makes the karma of a rich person who donates to charity seem insignificant
(indded with the tax bonuses it is actually in the riches benifit to donate)

2: "rich people have had good karma"
wrong! a lot of rich people go through miserable lifes. and with there resources they can potentially do a lot more hurt than most. money leads to power, power corrupts corruption = bad karma

3:a buhhdist or hindu gets better karma than a christian
wrong! according to there own wrtings karma is universal and the same for all creatures. a wild dog who gets enraged by a child but sees it is no threat and stops itsefl gets good karma, the dog that savages it gets bad. a chrisitan preist who brings a feeling of hope to his congregation gets good karma. a buhdist monk who uses his religion to feel supirior to others gets bad
on the path to enlightment a soul will have reincarnated as a preist of evry religion

4: "so i murder loads of babies but i die, so i wont remeber it in my future life so the punisment lifes wont affect me"
hahaha.
there are worst things than being human. and when you are reborn as a human your previos memory is fragmented by the process of childhood and our extremely complex neuro chemicular development.
there are also other levels of reality.
maybe you will come back as a hungry ghost, completly aware of your previos life and filled with the need to kill babys still, but killing them will no longer bring you satisfaction. and this will go on for a very long time as well. maybe a thoasand years.
or maybe you will come back as a battery hen, but as its punishment you will be aware

5: "karma takes away my freedom of choice"
you couldent be more wrong oh multitude. it can determine the parents you are born to but..
like you already had a choice over that.. a rich man can become poor. a poor man can become rich. that is choice. a poor man could transcend while a rich man falls. it is the way of it. even in death there is choice.

peace :ok:

Ok getting onto topic again...

I am not Catholic but I am a Christian (is it meant to be capitalised?).

Just for a moment imagine the most intense love you have ever felt for any person you have ever loved. I am not talking about lust for a person when you want to get into a sexual relationship! I am talking about love that knocks you off your feet with the sheer weight of it. Love that makes you feel like you are walking on air just being with that person.
Well take that kind of love and imagine it doubling in intensity every day for eternity and you may begin to understand the beginning of the bliss that awaits in heaven.

Biblically speaking (though I am no scholar) heaven is a place where God (Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit) reigns. It is a spiritual realm and is filled with love. It is georgeous beyond your wildest imagination. Take a trip to a place in nature that takes your breath away and you'll begin to understand how beautiful it is. For a while the people who get there will spend time there but eventually Jesus will return to earth, finish off evil once and for all and God will recreate the earth as it was in the beginning before sin came about. Then we will live and walk and talk with God as Adam and Eve did in Eden and we will be fulfilled for eternity.

Maybe sounds like a piece of fiction but I sure pray that as you read this it stirred something in you. Maybe butterflies, goose bumps or intellectual ascent. Whatever it is I hope to have gotten the point across.

Have an awesome day!

Why you want know how is the heaven..? :crazy:
Don´t fear you destiny, don´t fear your death..
Just love your life and love the peoples that you like... :ok:


"The heaven is a long night of sleep, where you never wake up." :angel:

how is it off topic to discuss karma and rebirth? some of us belive in that instead of heaven and hell. and its a view that has been around scince christians were hitting each other with rocks ie: long before christ even got round to being born. and as has been made clear by the people who actually know the bible here is that heaven is a load of catholic dogma, you may as well be krishna freaks if you want an eternall paradise.

I don't like that when you die your soul lives forever like think about how much you would be bored after 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.00 0.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.00 0.000.000.000years even if you are in paradice

Very well put =D

Why isn't everyone born equal? I guess you mean like having money, well build body, clever etc? Because if everyone was we would all be robots from an assembly line. Some people get rich by thinking and doing something others haven't before them, others because their forefathers did, others because they steal, others because they exploit other humans, others because they win the money in lotter, others because they use their brain and are not afraid to experiment, with some luck, presto! money!

As for physicaly different, you might want to check some biology as a first step, then genes etc.

I seriously do not like the idea of anyone being rich because they deserve it according to what they (supposedetly sp?) did in their previous life. It sure sounds like something it could be used to suppress the people not wanting more than they have because "they deserve" what they have according to what they did in their previous life. This sounds like pure expoitational ideas from some who want the people to shut up and not question their authority. [/b][/quote]
Hey look you just want to start a fight with me here or do you just want to discuss. I don't tell this religion is right this religion is wrong you can purely believe what you think is right and I have no problems with that. Also I have no intention of making people not question their authority.

@Omg:disabled people had bad karma in a previos life?
I can see what you mean but if a person is born blind do you think that it happened because he did good Karma in his life.

rich people have had good karma?
You are perfectly right but what I mean is if you have good Karman you would have a good life in your next birth

a buhhdist or hindu gets better karma than a christian?
WHAT WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT. This is not my opinion at all and this totally stupid question people have. your answer is correct.

so i murder loads of babies but i die, so i wont remeber it in my future life so the punisment lifes wont affect me?
You are right

karma takes away my freedom of choice?
What can I say :ok:

Ok I believe in these things and you have the right to believe in what you think. :ok:

actually i was taking the oppertunity to set the record straight on a few misconceptions. if you could see my bookshelf you would see why i get annoyed by people spouting b.s about karma. if you had read properly what i had written rather than skimming it you would have seen it wasnt all aimed at you.

yes a blind person could indeed have good karma. to come back as human means you have had good karma. blind or no. and the challange of a blind man is deserving and great.

say what you mean then. rich people tend to be heading for a huge wodge of bad karma. you said rich people had good karma in a previos life. it seems you are mistaking quality of life with money

as i have said the whole rant wasnt aimed at you, just general bs i have heard over the years

and the other 2 we seemed to agree on.

i belive what i think for a reosen. ie: my bookshelf. some of the views i have actually clash with some of the views of his holiness the dali llma himself yeah. but there is a lot of arrogence and ego hidden within that mans work. and that is the primary evil. unfortunatly it is an orginized religion so it falls to the same traps all orginized religions do. ahh well.

anyways sameerlord it seems we agree a lot on this subject so please dont take anything i have said as an attack :ok:

Actually Omg I'm totally agreeing with the rich poor thing at the end it all matters how your life is so basically if you do good karma you would have a good life. I said it in my previous post. Now for the blind situation. You are right to get a human life you need to have good Karma but there is some bad karma you did your previous life that led to blindness. Can you be bit more clear in this one cause this is the only thing that confuses me. No I love to discuss this topic so I don't take any of these things as attacks :ok:

Thanks.

And to add to the karma dicussion how about a Cerebal Palsied kid with nothing going on in their brain. Their entire life is spent drooling in a chair. Where is the karma in that? Good karma to be born a vegetable??? :eeeeeh:

I believe in what the Bible says and that is that God forgives but he is also just. That means that even though He wants to forgive and give full life sometimes something goes wrong in a family line and ends up in a CP, blind, deaf etc child. This is because the sins of the fathers are visited on their children (that is in the Bible too). I also believe that God can and does heal people. All I know is that once you have experienced the miraculous all intellectual arguements fall flat.

Have a wonderful day!!

:bye:

I don't understand why you think that thinking about heaven means fearing life :blink:

Personally i could fear a life that brings to nothing... in that case probably i'll choose to love no one else but me!

@ Classic pig: :ok:

I can see symptoms of religious fight here which I really don't need.

This just shows the high amount of bad karma he has done in his previous life do be in a situation like that. Anyways I respect what you believe in. If Bible what you believe I have no problems with that :ok:

One more thing don't you think that it makes sense. You do the right and nothing would happen to you without waiting for a supernatural force to help you!!

the bible is a bit to all over the place for me.
(one minute dont kill the next throw stones at em till they are dead )
(one minute freedom of choice the next the sins of the father)
ect....
so you are saying that its fine for the sins of the father to be vested on the child and lead to c.p but its not fine for that souls eveloution to end up with it spending a life in c.p?
wow....
*sorry mr jones that your son is blind. this is becuase when you were young you slept around and masturbated*
*sorry mrs peterson your son has c.p. you really should have married the first person you slept with*

i could go on. thats certainly a just god isnt it. besides if that is the case my father was most definatly what you christians would consider a sinner. oh yes. the kind you just dont get around so much these days. proper old school nasty. have his sins been vested on me? (hmm full vision, no cp, i can actually go a day without booze)
its really making me laught to see christians saying that the boundries of karma remove personall choice. haha. you guys just have so much more choice under your system dont you.... then again its a book that actually uses the *you are the sheep i am the shephard* analogy quite a bit. something tells me he is gonna come back to earth, lead you all into the light... of a giant meat pie factory.

Only referring to that. Trying to figure out where it leaves a person who is born with a severe disability. They have no mind to choose anything either good or bad in this life so then where to from there. They will not ever have the opportunity to create good karma and as such surely would be doomed to a miserable existance for ever?

Only referring to that. Trying to figure out where it leaves a person who is born with a severe disability. They have no mind to choose anything either good or bad in this life so then where to from there. They will not ever have the opportunity to create good karma and as such surely would be doomed to a miserable existance for ever? [/b][/quote]
Have you ever though about people who have organised bombs etc that have KILLED THOUSAND OF PEOPLE. Do you think the person behind it just have to have a bad life for just one life. By the way can't a blind person have good karma. He can be pleaseat in his speech, always having a good attitude, helping people for the best of his ability.


Why do you need a supernatural force to guide you
Why can't you change you own life according to what you do without thinking everything is god's wish

a blind man is not a vegetable.
so you are saying all disabled people have no choices?
there is always choice even if the choice is a simple as to live or 2 die.
i am not buddha. therefore i dont actually know what the karmic status of cp is. hence why i didnt bring it up. you did. i was talking about slightly lesser disabilitys.
if a starving blind man shares a meal with a freind and leaves himslf hungry he generates a large amount of good karma as that is a great act from his position. indeed the gods would see that act as being greater than a billionare donating millions to charity.
but we dont tell the rich that cause its good that they keep donatin :bleh:

Not at all what I am saying. We are all too quick to blame God when something goes wrong but when do we thank Him when things go right.

In your case I am sure that it is only by the grace of God that you have all your mind to fight against Him with. Same for me in reverse.

When you look at CP kids I am prepared to stick my neck out a bit and say that many of those parents did not want their kids in the first place. That opens up a huge problem in the spiritual realm and suddenly genes go wrong. How often have you heard people say, " Oh he's just like his father", or, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree".... Not just CP etc that is caused by fathers sins but a whole lot of stuff. I am pepared to bet that most people end up a lot like their fathers in one way or another. (before you flame me just check...) I know that even though I hardly know my dad that I am still very much like him. I have not spent enough time with him to pick up his habits but yet I still find myself doing things just like him. Those are the cases which are more worrying to me than CP. It is no big thing for God to heal people from the generational curses and similarly no big thing for him to heal a "braindead" person.

Ok so then karma does not address severe disabilities then...?So then what would you say? Remember these people have no mental function and can't decide.

P.S. My uncle is blind and I know many deaf children and believe me I know that they are not vegetables it was directed at those with severe CP etc however it was a little harsh! - I do apologise.
:D

god has given me no grace mousey. i make my own path.

so where is my oh so vaunted freedom of choice then if god has given me the grace to advoid that path?
wow... for a second i thought you meant my father.. seeing the captlisation i can see that you mean god. look kid reincarnation used to be in the bible. it got taken out. there are examples of karma in the bible as well.

you are sticking your neck out so far that i am amazed you havnt been mistaken for a chicken and had it chopped off. again my mother didnt actually want me, but she was still christian at that point and didnt want to get an abortion. gaaah. a lot of the parents on the estate i grew up didnt plan there pregnacies yet there isnt a vast amount of disabled people where i live. the balance is the same as evrywhere else.
dont start hitting me with any of your facist crap. and lets not get yet another religios thread shut down.

Ok so then karma does not address severe disabilities then...?So then what would you say? Remember these people have no mental function and can't decide.

P.S. My uncle is blind and I know many deaf children and believe me I know that they are not vegetables it was directed at those with severe CP etc however it was a little harsh! - I do apologise.
:D [/b][/quote]
What are you talking about? Read few more times to understand.

As Buddha once said,

No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path."

Like catholic i think that God just leave us free to do wathever we want!

I agree, even if i have to say that we can choose and God save us...

christ stole all his best ideas from buddah.

Wasn't Buddism based several thousand miles away from the Middle East (where Christ spent his life).

they sent missionarys to the west at the time christ was around. i see more than a coincidence. it wasnt just the product of caterpillers bottoms and spices that travled the silk road.
a lot of catholic trappings could well have been borrowed from the far east. prayer beads and the apearence of monks (and there celibate states) being just a couple.

a lot of catholic trappings could well have been borrowed from the far east. prayer beads and the apearence of monks (and there celibate states) being just a couple.

Except that prayer beads don't show up until around the 8th or 9th century ACE, and monks were established over the last thousand years BCE in Palestine/Israel/whatever. (They were called prophets in the OT.) I really don't see Buddhism having any effect on Jesus. Buddha taught that gods were simply caught in the illusion of desire, hate and fear like the rest of us, and that the true state of reality was one of freedom from all that. Jesus was a Jew and a firm believer in his god, with some very interesting notions that do point east, but more towards certain religious practices emerging in the region of modern Iran/Iraq. There is no Buddhist equivalent to the magic rite of transubstantiation, for example--how could there be, since Buddha denied the reality of gods?--but it is powerful magic that transcends its Christian use. There are definite pagan ties, there, in my opinion.

not just your opinion. here is the evidence of christianitys rip offs from paganism
mithras
of course some of the christians here will ignore this as it is archeoligy ie: science.

and heres a lovely site and it actually ansers a lot of questions about the christian concept of heaven by using more scripture quotes than the average catholic
jesus buddha krishna are one
take this for example
yeeha, so by saying to others that if you dont follow christ you going to hell you are DENYING yourself entrance to heaven christians. you always manage to advoid the core of what your bloody religion is meant to be about.

i really reccomend you christians read the above 2 sites. although i am certain you will find ways of denying what they say and continuing your hate filled lifes.

you know, my first thought after reading that was : "that smells with hippies! lot's of them.", but then I realised jesus (the fact that I don't think he's a son of god, doesn't mean I don't think he existed...) jesus was a hippie. by defenition. he talked about love (and believed in it!) and had no respect for money (the 30 silvers episode) or decent job. maybe people are taking this thing way to narrowly...

Well, i think that great religions are so similar except for some principles like that there sholud be a God/Gods/superior entity/energy/something greater than humans (even science) and taht we have to be good (where "good" could mean different things...)

Uuhm i'm not so sure that we think the same about what are those "best ideas" except loving!
And, of course, good principles are not patented...

:yawn: today i'm a bit out of order... so i'm not able to express me very well...


@ omg: i'm just wondering if you read my posts :blink: ... i don't want flame, i'm just curious :angel:

@ as1: Hippies said something good: Peace and love :ok:

i read your posts quin. why would i flame you for them? unfortunatly my life experiances of christians have given me a very negetive perception of that religion and all of its offshoots. unfortunatly quin you are a minority among christians not a majority.

i have read evry major religios text and i tend to veer towards the fat laughting one as his followers seem to actually follow his word a lot more.

as for this hippie thing... i hate hippys!! no really i actually hate them. i was bought up around a lot of hippies and they are only talking about peace and love when they are well stocked on drugs. they complain about people making roads then they drive around in huge buses with no catalytic converter! :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: :ranting: ahem.
if jesus was a hippie he was the only good hippy. and maybe the hippys in the 1960's who got beaten up by goverment troops for protesting vietnam were cool but most modern hippies, bleagh dont make me sick!!
*(severly hopes none of the hippys i know read this site or theres gonna be hell for me)*

There is no such thing in Judaism as prophets, only Mozes came close to being something like a prophet.

erm, wha? erm, wha? as much as i dread ever contesting anyting at all you ever say stroggy as i know what will usually come of it, what were these guys then..
Amos,Hosea,Isaiah,Joel,Nahum,Zephania,Habakuk,Jere miah,Haggai,Zecheriah,Malachi Deborah,Obadiah,Ezekiel,Jonah,Micheal
they were just people who spoke of the future is it? or preachers who predicted future events is it? and the difference between that and a prophet is?/??

There is no such thing in Judaism as prophets, only Mozes came close to being something like a prophet. [/b][/quote]
Stroggy, OMG beat me to it. :D There are many, many OT prophets--the old guys who lived as hermits, then felt the need to return to civilizations that had grown (in their opinions) too effete and corrupt, and start uttering mixtures of advice and curses.

yeeha, so by saying to others that if you dont follow christ you going to hell you are DENYING yourself entrance to heaven christians. you always manage to advoid the core of what your bloody religion is meant to be about.

OMG, I never said that. Have you been reading my posts? I've been a witch for forty-three years, and was physically initiated twenty-eight years ago. I'm a Gardnerian, and have repeatedly led my own covens since then, though currently I'm just a solitary--frankly, leading those folks can be exhausting. Please don't preach to me about what I think or believe if you don't actually read what I write.

As for Buddha, Krishna and Jesus, I already posted that Buddhism denies the superiority of gods or their ultimate worth, so Jesus could hardly be the same thing--in fact, quite the opposite. And Krishna was/is a god, if you follow a certain belief pattern, while Jesus clearly never stated anything expressing a belief in any self-godhood. If I were to tell you that because you and I agree on a few issues this means we're identical, would you agree to that?

why do people take what i say so personally when they are clearly general statements??? i know you are a witch. can you read. i said christians... it wasnt aimed at you... do you think evry post on this thread is aimed at you...? im very confused that you took that post so personally. see i said christians. not gardanerians whos post is above mine ... the only part of that post that refered to you was the first part with the mithras reference.
anyways i am beggining to regret posting.

why do people take what i say so personally when they are clearly general statements??? i know you are a witch. can you read.

I have been known to read, yes, and I quite good at detecting the stink of discourtesy when I find it. I also know that you posted your remarks in a response to me. If they were general, instead of directed at me, you might have tried to indicate that. Unless, of course, it's too much effort.

i said christians... it wasnt aimed at you...

But since you never acknowledged that I wasn't a Christian, how was I to tell that you didn't think I was one? Your remarks in response to mine seem to indicate you did think I was one. You even put in your comments answering mine the phrase, "You Christians." Am I supposed to read your mind and understand you meant, "You're not a Christian, but for everybody who is a Christian and is reading this..."? I can't very well read your mind. Though I am pretty good with tarot cards. ;)

Aside from that, can you understand why I don't see any essential identity between Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus? I've Buddhist friends who would frankly laugh at the idea that they worship anything, because Buddhism isn't a religion, and Buddha isn't a god; whereas Krishna is a god, and Jesus is a prophet. Of course, he subsequently became a sort of half-prophet-half-god, or one-third-of-a-god-but-also-the-entire-thing, and that's one undigestable part of Christian theology I don't think anybody can fully explain. :D

hmm i said "you christians"
this tends to mean christians.
are you a christian?
i didnt think so
does it take mind reading to know that?
i didnt think so.
my posts coming across as tetchy?
3 days scince i went from smoking 30+ ciggeretes a day to 0 ciggeretes a day.
are you being pedantic in your responses?
yes i think you are.

hmm i said "you christians"
this tends to mean christians.
are you a christian?
i didnt think so

And again, I was supposed to know you understood this--how? :D

my posts coming across as tetchy?
3 days scince i went from smoking 30+ ciggeretes a day to 0 ciggeretes a day.

So you decided to share the bliss by attacking me, up here? How civil of you.

are you being pedantic in your responses?
yes i think you are.

You mean, as opposed to your pedantic responses to others pointing out that Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus were the same? By the way, are you going to deal with my remarks on this issue you've raised, or just keep refusing to do so? Please let me know. I might go ahead and post information on all three regardless, but a genuine dialog is much more interesting.

how did i know this that you arnt a christian was it by a feat of mind reading. no. it was through aplication of a special skill. i read all the posts on a thread before i post. you already stated you are a witch. here

im not attacking you. you started on me by assuming the whole of the post was aimed at you. the only reosen i am bothering to respond is becuse im already stressed and spoling for a fight.

why is it pedantic to point at essential similaritys between what they all said? and at least i always provide sources. for someone who is far older than me and obviosly a bit better read you are taking it all a bit seriosly.

you said people dont worship the fat dude. to the untrained eye bowing dowen before a statue and burning incense tends to count as *worship*

i dont say they are all identical. but i think they are all the same as they are all spouting out philosiphys of peace and love to help the individual get closer to god. this is why i think they are part of the same thing. you can give me technical definitions of what they are and i wont care. they could be kami for all i care or small talking rocks. what i am trying to get across is they all share the same philosphy of peace and love.
and they all help there followers find something beyond death.

if i had said *read this witches* it would have been directed at you. i didnt.

how did i know this that you arnt a christian was it by a feat of mind reading. no. it was through aplication of a special skill. i read all the posts on a thread before i post. you already stated you are a witch.

Yes, on page 5, and this is page 9. As you never acknowledged it, and your response directly to me contains the phrase "You Christians," it would seem reasonable to assume you had never read my posts mentioning the Craft 5 pages ago, and had thought I was a Christian.

im not attacking you. you started on me by assuming the whole of the post was aimed at you. the only reosen i am bothering to respond is becuse im already stressed and spoling for a fight.

Oh, well, go find somebody else to gnaw on, then. My allergies may be wrecking my body at the moment but the sun is shining, the earth is beneath my feet, and I've no interest in a fight because of stress. I'm alive, and that's good enough. :)

why is it pedantic to point at essential similaritys between what they all said? and at least i always provide sources. for someone who is far older than me and obviosly a bit better read you are taking it all a bit seriosly.

The information you provided was a link to an opinion drawing upon a few texts. That doesn't make it accurate, or inaccurate. What does is a lot more comparisons. And as you posted it with serious intent, why shouldn't I take your comments seriously? Should I just poke fun at your remarks? I give you more credit than that.

i dont say they are all identical. but i think they are all the same as they are all spouting out philosiphys of peace and love to help the individual get closer to god. this is why i think they are part of the same thing. you can give me technical definitions of what they are and i wont care.

Since you don't care, and aren't interested in anything except stating your opinions, maybe it's best if we just end this poor attempt at a dialog. Have a good day.

:yawn:

Posts with just a smilie don't contribute to the discussion and are classified as spam - Havell

sorry but this isnt a discussion. this is him taking something i have said very literally and personally and then attacking me becuase of it. as far as i am concerned i have already ansered him but he keeps going on at me and i dont have the energy to deal with logic games today. btw his last sentance he was still on the thread 10 minutes after saying that... so clearly he wanted it to continue. despite him saying that he didnt.

I see spam. I dont like spam. or flaming. or this topic in general..
guess what Im gonna do.